The Second Amendment, ratified in 1791, refers ... which was created in 1903, 112 years later.

Christian news in maine.com ^ | 18January, 2004 | Larry Austin

[newsgatherer]

Handgun Control Inc. says it wants to keep handguns out of the hands of the wrong people. Guess what. If you are a law abiding citizen who owns a handgun you have the "wrong hands."

Banning guns works. That is why New York and Chicago have such high murder rates.

Washington D.C. which has strict gun controls has a murder rate of 69 per 100,000. Indianapolis, without them has an awesome murder rate of 9 per 100,000. Gun control works.

You can incapacitate an intruder with tear gas or oven spray. If you shoot him with a .357 he will get angry and kill you.

A woman raped and strangled is morally superior to a woman standing with a smoking gun and a dead rapist at her feet.

The "New England Journal of Medicine" has some excellent articles on gun control just as "The American Rifleman" carries equally great articles on open-heart surgery.

The Second Amendment, ratified in 1791, refers to the National Guard which was created in 1903, 112 years later.

The "right of the people peaceably to assemble" and "the right of the people to be secure in their homes" refers to individuals while "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" refers to the state.

One should consult an automobile technician for vehicle repairs, a computer programmer for problems with your hard drive and Sara Brady for firearms expertise.

Most citizens cannot be trusted so we need firearms laws because we can trust citizens to abide by them.

If you are not familiar with most of the above you have not been following the firearms debate. In fact you haven't tuned in to the liberals who still have their hands in your pockets and on your firearms even though the pounding defeats ...

[Dead Corpse]

It's an old fight. We've ben going back and forth like this for years. Literally. Everyone has a favorite punching bag. He's one of mine.

[RasterMaster]

"If you owned a few hundred acres of desert, maybe. But if you live in the city..."

It would certainly keep the neighborhood pets out of your yard!

[jimthewiz]

There is not a scintilla of evidence that any arm greater than a individual arm was ever considered as an arm to be kept or provided by an individual militia member. There is considerable evidence to the contrary.

This seems to be at least a scintilla of evidence.

The National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA 34):

This law placed certain classes of firearms into a registered ownership category. Private individuals can possess a functional machine gun, silencer (suppressor), short-barreled rifle or shotgun, smooth-bore pistol, cane gun, or destructive device (certain shotguns, grenade launchers, hand grenades, bazookas, mortars, cannon, etc.) only after first paying a Federal Transfer Tax of either $5 or $200 per firearm/device. The $5 tax applies to pen guns, cane guns, smoothbore pistols, or any other such firearm that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms classifies as "Any Other Weapon" (AOW). All other functional guns or devices in the NFA registry require payment of a $200 federal tax for each private transfer. The tax is not an annual tax. It only is paid each time a functional NFA firearm is being transferred to or from a private owner (excepting inheritance).

[justshutupandtakeit]

Most of the hysteria generated over federal "tyranny" was just democrat-republican propaganda. The important founders knew very well that there was a huge difference between a government appointed from 3000 miles away and one elected by a free people.

The real tyranny of that day was that exercised by State governments in assisting the enslavement of other humans not a TINY federal government.

A good rule of thumb is that the more tied into the real tyranny one was the more concern was expressed about fraudulent "tyranny."

[justshutupandtakeit]

I was referring to militia units and the role of artillary within them and never claimed that the fedgov at that time forbid them. It could and later did but not in 1790. Sorry I was not clear about that.

[justshutupandtakeit]

You have NOT "proven" me wrong. Making words mean what you WANT them to mean does not prove a contention. Nor does your opinion mean anything to me. Nor do your insults nail down an argument even if Bert applauds them.

[leftover]

I guess that you are using QUIL PENS and a GUETENBURGH
PRINTING PRESS. The Bill of Rights does not grant us
(THE PEOPLE) anything. It suppresses the Government from
interfereing with our GOD GIVEN RIGHTS. A military-style
weapon is just that tool we need to do so if it ever becomes necessary. Get one now.

[Dead Corpse]

Bookmark this site for future Letters of M&R arguments. Nothing like having an ACTUAL letter on hand to refute the gun grabbers lunacy.

Note how the list armament ALREADY INSTALLED on the ships in question. They do not actually authorize those ships to be armed at all. Only commissioning their usage for US military goals. Also, the privateer gets to keep the guns on any ships he takes.

James Madison, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

To all who shall see these presents, Greetings:

       BE IT KNOWN that in pursuance of an act of congress passed on the twenty-sixth day of June one thousand eight hundred and twelve, I have commissioned, and by these presents do commission, the private armed Brig called the (Name of Vessel) Prince of Neufchatel of the burden of three hundred and nineteen tons, or thereabouts, owned by (Owners’ Name(s) John Ordronaux and Peter E. Trevall of the city and state of (City) New York and (Owner's Name) Joseph Beyelle of (City's Name) Philadelphia  in the state of (State) Pennsylvania mounting eighteen carriage guns, and navigated by one hundred and twenty-nine men, hereby authorizing (Captain’s Name) Nicholas Millin Captain, and (Lieutenant’s Name) William Stetson Lieutenant of the said Brig and the other officers and crew thereof to: Subdue, seize and take any armed or unarmed British vessel, public or private, which shall be found within the jurisdictional limits of the United States or elsewhere on the high seas, or within the waters of the British dominions.
     And each captured vessel with her apparel, guns and appurtenances, and the goods or effects which shall be found on board the same, together with all the British persons and others who shall be found acting on board, to bring within some port of the United States;  
     And also to retake any vessel, goods or effects of the people of the United States, which may have been captured by any British armed vessel, in order that proceedings may be had concerning each capture or recapture in due form of law, and as to right and justice shall appertain.
     The said (Captain’s Name) Nicholas Mullin is further authorized to detain, seize and take all vessels and effects, to whomsoever belonging, which shall be liable thereto according to the law of Nations and the rights of the United States as a power at war.
     And to bring the same within some port of the United States in order that due proceedings may be had thereon. This commission to continue in force during the pleasure of the President of the United States for the time being.

     GIVEN under my hand and the seal of the United States of America at the city of Washington, the twenty second day of December in the year of our Lord, one thousand eight hundred and fourteen and the independence of the said states the thirty ninth.
                                                              By the President, James Madison                James Monroe, Secretary of State

[justshutupandtakeit]

Only a dumbass or a corpse will claim I am a gun grabber or is the NRA a left wing outfit to you clowns?

[djf]

As far as I can understand it, your argument has been that private individuals and groups were not allowed to own the WMD of their day.

The United States Statutes at Large, which I cited above, is the law as passed by Congress, and it specifically says that those rights and privileges of private corps and individuals were preserved, but they were subject to being called up at any time as the regular militia.

I don't know you from Jack, and all I am doing is reading verbatim an official publication of the State of Michigan.

I can scan it in if you like.

[justshutupandtakeit]

Oh, you liked it eh? While I know handling my ass would be a great thrill for you I wouldn't appreciate it.

Typical Jeffersonian nonsense speaking of a freely elected government as "rulers" not that he was any good against the real rulers when he had a chance. Rather he preferred to weaken the Virginia militia and lead it poorly into disaster.

Being called a "troll" by an abject moron is no insult.

[King Prout]

the NRA is no leftist outfit, but neither is it all it is cracked up to be.

you, on the other hand, do seem to be all too willing to bend over to revisionist versions of the meanings of "rights", "people", and "infringe".

you have had your head handed to you repeatedly on this thread alone.

learn, or justshutupandtakeit.

[justshutupandtakeit]

It is bad when a "punching bag" has you on the canvas.

[Dead Corpse]

Just keep talking you VPC hack...

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them..."
(Richard Henery Lee, 1788, Initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights.)

"That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of The United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms..."
(Samuel Adams)

"The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full posession of them."
Zachariah Johnson Elliot's Debates, vol. 3 "The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution."

[Dead Corpse]

Keep twitching worm.

[Triple]

The body of the constitution authorizes letters of marque and reprisal. These were documents legalizing action by state of the art, fully-armed privately owned battle ships.

They authorized action, these vessels were previously legally armed.

Google search the papers for the privateer "Lucy" if you doubt me.

So yes, by law and by tradition US citizens may own ships of war.

[Triple]

I like your #50 - Honest, I did not read it before posting.

[Dead Corpse]

Bleet bleet little sheep. Go back and tell Sarah Brady you lost another argument. Maybe she'll give you something easier to do. Like writing an article for CBS or something.

[Dead Corpse]

Here's the one for the Lucy

Fascinating reading.

[justshutupandtakeit]

No, I have never claimed that the fedgov made illegal possession of artillary just that it was not what was referred to in the 2d amendment. And that militia artillary companies were not based on the idea that anyone could effectively use such weapons. Their officers had to pass a special examination (principally mathematics) to receive a commission as an officer.