French Reporter, a Lover of Arab Culture, Discusses His Kidnapping in Iraq

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I'm disappointed. I wish he could have given us a sensitive explanation of the Arab "point of view", before they decapitated him. That would have REALLY impressed me.

... venture onto the high roads of Occupied Iraq ...

As opposed to the "unoccupied" part of the country....

French Reporter, a Lover of Arab Culture, Discusses His Kidnapping in Iraq
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Why didn't he get beheaded, then the LOVE for the Arab Culture would have much more satisfying!

PARIS - Two sons of la France profonde, in love with Arab culture and language, Georges Malbrunot and Christian Chesnot, venture onto the high roads of Occupied Iraq, are captured on August 20 by the resistance, endure four months of captivity, with in the words of Mr. Malbrunot, Cartesian serenity, are liberated on December 22, in time to spend Christmas with their families.

The French reporters and their Syrian chauffeur-interpreter Mohamed Al Jundi were kidnapped and held for two weeks on the same farm near Latifiya where the Italian journalist Enzo Baldoni was slaughtered August 26. Mr. Al Jundi, separated from his companions in early September, was discovered in a Fallujah slaughterhouse and liberated by American troops in November.

Both Mr. Malbrunot and Mr. Chesnot headed for the Middle East straight from journalism school, lived among Arabs - Mr. Malbrunot in East Jerusalem, and Mr. Chesnot in Egypt and Jordan - published books on the Middle East, and co-authored two books on Saddam Hussein.

The prime minister's jet arrived after nightfall in Villacoublay, France, on the landing strip of the military airport that had so recently given Yasser Arafat a funereal sendoff with military honors. Clean-shaven and slimmer but none the worse for it, Mr. Chesnot and Mr. Malbrunot were met by tearful loved ones, proud government officials, and their companion, Mr. Al Jundi. After a champagne interlude, the reporters braved the icy rain for a short but telling press conference.

Mr. Chesnot, pale and shaky, dwelled on the worst moments...the drastic turn of events when their jailors announced on November 8, that they would be killed if they couldn't convince their government to be more cooperative.

Mr. Malbrunot, with chiseled features, thick dark hair, and a determined stance unabashedly outlined their survival strategy. "They told us they were Salafists, and have many enemies...We said that we're not with their enemies, we aren't American, we aren't collaborators with the Americans...We're French reporters, France doesn't have troops in Iraq, there are no French contractors in Iraq, France was against this war, and is against the occupation, so we understand the resistance...whenever you have an illegal occupation you inevitably have a resistance."

There are few dissident voices in the chorus of self-congratulation celebrating the hostage release. Time will tell the price of that liberation. One thing is sure: The political cost is enormous.

The bitter irony of fate would have it that 22 American and Iraqi soldiers were killed and over 60 injured in a mess tent in Mosul by an Al Qaeda homicide bomber a few hours before Al Jazeera announced the liberation of the French reporters. A chilling reminder that the price of liberation varies. As does its quality.

Georges Malbrunot cordially welcomed me to his home recently in Droiturier, in the center of France, for an exclusive interview. The following excerpts give a taste of our extensive, expansive, forthright dialogue:

You lived for nine years in East Jerusalem...Did you feel safe there?

Yes. It wasn't a political or ideological choice. I just happened to live in the Arab residential neighborhood. I could just as well have lived in the Jewish neighborhood. In fact, it was safer in the East, because the bombings were on the Jewish side in the West.

Did this influence your feeling of safety in Iraq?

Yes...but these are two very different situations. The Israel-Palestine conflict is less complicated...much less violent, Palestinians don't take hostages, the rules of the game are clear. Iraq is historically a violent country... After the first kidnappings last April, you had to be on the alert. Our idea was to blend into the crowd. We lived in a shabby little hotel, I grew a beard, tried to look like the local people.

After you were kidnapped [on August 20] you were held for two weeks at a farm near Latifya. There was a family living on the farm. Were you already in the hands of the Islamic Army?

Yes. They have people who capture hostages, others who guard them, they have a court...it's quite well organized.

The prisoners who were executed...Enzo Baldoni, for instance...were they killed at that farm, or somewhere else?

I don't know but probably yes, at the farm. It was pretty big, it was in a palm grove, there were huts...We saw the Iranian consul who was later liberated. And the Iraqi from the electrical power station, who was beheaded.

Your first line of reasoning was "we are French journalists, we are not pro-American, we are here to write about the resistance."

We were trying to save our lives...you can imagine. And we did disagree with the American policy. I was against the war. You know, when you go to war you solve one problem and create two or three others...at the end of the day you have more problems than before. We were very critical of the way the Americans handled things in Iraq, we could see they were heading for disaster...dismantling the whole security apparatus, thinking they could tear everything apart and start from zero. Iraq is an old country...

You said that you were on the Bin Laden planet. Did it change your feelings about the insurgency? Would you call the people who were holding you insurgents, or resistants?

For us it is clear: People who combat an illegal occupation that results from an illegal war are resistants. Resistance is a sacred right, whether you are Islamist or nationalist, you are resistants. However, when you capture people from a country that has nothing to do with the situation, then your methods have nothing to do with the resistance. Those methods are...uh...different.

When they take hostages from countries who have troops in Iraq, would that be resistance? Nick Berg?

Would that be resistance? [long silence] That...that...They can capture them...negotiate... But not kill them. [pause] Taking hostages is a measure...it's...it's a method of terrorists.

Whether or not? Occupation or no occupation?

Still it's all the more reprehensible when it hits people who have nothing to do with the war.

You don't think that Al Qaeda is against France as well?

Oh yes. For them, France belongs to the Western world. These people...You know on October 15 we asked them who do you want, Bush or Kerry. They said 'we want Bush, with Bush we'll have American troops in Iraq for many years, so we'll grow stronger. By intervening in Afghanistan Bush did us a favor. We've spread all over the world...we're implanted in 60 countries.' You see, they both have that kind of vision...For Bush the world is divided into good and evil; for them it's Muslims and infidels - kufars.

You think that's the same kind of a category? You and I also have categories of good and evil, right?

What I mean is...Of course I don't put Bush on the same level as the terrorists. But they're happy to have Bush facing them because each in a way is playing on the shock of cultures. They feed each other this Manichean vision, for Bush, there is good and evil. For them, there is the umma - the Muslim community - and the rest of the world, kufars. The French are kufars too, but there's still a big difference between France and the U.S....

That has roots that go way back before Bush. It has its own self-generating mechanism. Osama has declared that Zarqawi is his man in Iraq. So that makes this an Al Qaeda...

Yeah.

Al Qaeda came in because the Americans came in?

No, these people who kidnapped us were Salafists under Saddam, ...they lived under a ferocious dictator, and kept their mouths shut. Now they can do whatever they want. The Americans should have thought of that. Dictatorship is not good. But the Islamists were held down.

Would you say that it was better before?

On this issue, for sure.

After writing about Saddam's crimes, do you think the status quo ante was stable?

Before, they lived under a terrible dictatorship like all the Iraqis. Now the lid's off, the Pandora's box was opened...

Here in Europe we now have a domestic jihad developing. Muslims born here, some of them third generation, deciding to make jihad in Europe against Europe. Is Europe prepared for that?

In France I think we have experience with terrorism, we take the thing quite seriously and I think we must so that those people don't develop....We asked the jihadists who'd been in the camps in Afghanistan, they said France isn't a priority. But France can be targeted.

I read that France has recently deported 84 people. They don't publicize it. Is this their part policy of discretion, to keep the population from realizing what's going on?

Perhaps.

You're going to be kept busy here. You'll be able to do your Middle East thing right here!

Especially when you make a mistake like this law against head scarves. When you're dealing with people like Al Qaeda you mustn't give them angles of attack. They feed on the shock of cultures. You and I are - except if you're Muslim, which I doubt - we are kufars, infidels, and what they want is to recreate the caliphate from Andalusia to the Chinese frontier. France had practically nothing against us...except our presence in Afghanistan, which is greatly reduced. And now we offer them on a silver platter a law that will solve a few problems but...

Do you think it will be repealed?

Repealed? No.

Toned down?

Time will tell. It's clear that the repercussions abroad...the threat of jihad...bin Laden...When we told the jihadist that we are against that law, we think it should have been handled by dialogue, he said, 'what dialogue, the head scarf is an obligation for Muslims, there can't be any dialogue.' So you can see there are limits to dialogue...but all the more reason not to give them an opportunity to take action.

But their demands may increase?

Yes. That's why you shouldn't give them opportunities. You have to go along discreetly...

And what if you do everything they...

You know what the jihadists told us. You are treated better than the prisoners at Abu Ghraib or the Muslims at Guantanamo. It's true. We weren't sodomized, we weren't beaten, we weren't raped. That's why I say the difference in the approach...

But some of their prisoners were beheaded.

Of course, of course.

What you are saying is, France can protect itself [No] by staying out of the conflict and French people won't be the target [No] of these people who want to kill all of us. They might want to kill me...here in France...

They wouldn't want to kill you. Our jihadists told us you should strike strategically, not kill you or me arbitrarily...you should strike very efficiently...Spain...not lose your...by killing Malbrunot or...

They killed Theo Van Gogh. What if someone writes an article they don't like...

You have to be shrewd. You have to outwit them. Those people are not democratic, you mustn't play in their field...ideology...values...

Despite profound disagreements on the political level, is it true that the French and American secret services cooperate?

Of course. When it comes to terrorism we're all in the same boat. France is in the same family as the Americans...

And did France cooperate with the Americans for your release?

I don't think so. I don't think the French wanted to involve the Americans because the greatest fear of the jihadists was that the French would blow their cover.

Ah! If the French cooperated with the Americans then the Americans might have been able to arrest the jihadis?

Right.

Ms. Poller is a novelist living in Paris.

Not too hard to figure out where these two french propagandists are coming from, is it?

They're poltroons.

ping

Interestingly, the article (seemingly) unintentionally makes the case that, as with cockroaches, half measures are doomed to failure, and extermination is the only viable option. It isn't a clash of civilizations when one side is barbaric and uncivilized, it it?

Another point of interest is that while admitting that islamism is bent on world conquest, he comes out in sympathy with it.

"[ don't think so. I don't think the French wanted to involve the Americans because the greatest fear of the jihadists was that the French would blow their cover.

Ah! If the French cooperated with the Americans then the Americans might have been able to arrest the jihadis?

Right.

Not difficult at all to figure where these two are coming from; . . .but not entirely sure; where the interviewer Ms. Poller is coming from. . .or whether she is leading. . .and, if so. . .where to?

She doesn't seem to be a bad interviewer, not to me at least. Her questions posed a number of oft-heard objections to the french strategy of cowardice, surrender and sneakiness -- a strategy the guy obviously embraces. He claims the jihadis treat their captives so much better than those in AG and Guantanamo, then she brings up the beheadings and all he can say is, "Of course, of course."

I think she gave him plenty of room to make a fool of himself and he took full advantage of it. But then he's playing only to a french audience. They're usually not bothered by absurdity and contradiction. Same with the books Malunbrot and Chesnot co-wrote (working closely with Saddam's personal translator, by the way). They're not available in English because they toe the french line all the way -- America bad, islam good. Self-defense bad, surrender good. Straight talk bad, weasel-wording good. And so on.

"She doesn't seem to be a bad interviewer, not to me at least. Her questions posed a number of oft-heard objections to the french strategy of cowardice, surrender and sneakiness -- a strategy the guy obviously embraces. He claims the jihadis treat their captives so much better than those in AG and Guantanamo, then she brings up the beheadings and all he can say is, "Of course, of course."

Oh, I agree with you! My point. . .not well made - was between my expectations and her subtle - sort of - leading questions. . .a French reporter and novelist; so would expect a less than gentle ride to the Left; but in fact. . .she seems to set more than a few traps along the way. . .and ends, with what seems a big 'gotcha'. . .I wonder if the 'French eyes' see this the same way.

Is she a popular French reporter and successful novelist? ;^)