Posted on 01/04/2005 12:24:26 PM PST by Keyes2000mt
The words were said countless thousands of times last year as a minister concluded the ceremony. "What God hath joined together, let no man put asunder." But so often man and woman do.
While gay marriage has been roundly condemned in most churches (and rightly so), you will not hear much about divorce. In many cases, if divorce is discussed in church, it's talked about as this horrible circumstance that comes upon people, listed in the same breath as automobile accidents or serious illnesses.
The Bible is quite clear on the issue of divorce. Malachi 2:16 says it clearly, "For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that He hateth putting away (i.e. Divorce)..." Hate's a strong word and Christ reiterates this in the New Testament. Yet, in the church, even in Conservative churches, a man is more likely to feel uncomfortable with pierced ear than with a couple divorces behind him.
There's good reason why the church and conservatives are skittish about this topic. There's no one who doesn't know someone who's been divorced. They fill our church pews every Sunday. We know them to be decent folks who agree with us on a lot of cultural issues. Randall Terry, Newt Gingrich, and Rush Limbaugh have all been divorced.
We also know folks who have been victimized by their ex-spouse: abused, cheated on, and treated like dirt. Or, perhaps you dear reader have had a divorce where you weren't at fault and that you didn't choose.
On the other hand, most Christians know very few homosexuals and even less know homosexuals who'd like to get married. The odds of a pastor offending a large tither whose gay and wants to get married is quite small.
To say our current divorce rate is a national sin is not to say that all divorcees are to be condemned and treated as despicable outcasts. The church should be compassionate, but even as Christ said, "Go and sin no more," It must be proactive in dealing with divorce.
Divorce must be taught against strongly in the church. The church as a community should be dedicated to helping preserve the marriages of the church. Strengthening the marriages of believers should be considered as important if not more so than evangelism. Children of broken homes often wander spiritually and in many cases fall from faith. Thus, a large church may win 100 converts, but if it produces 40 broken homes in the same year that leads to 100 angry and embittered children, it is not truly building the Kingdom of God.
Also, church discipline should be used when appropriate for those who divorce without just cause and refuse reconciliation efforts. Watching Cornerstone Television, I saw former NFL player and Pastor of Antioch Bible Church Ken Hutcherson. He organized the Mayday for Marriage rally in Washington, DC opposing gay marriage. Call him anything you like, but don't call him a gay-hating hypocrite. Hutcherson said that in the past year, he'd censured five members of the church, including some for ending marriages without just cause.
The structure of most Protestant Churches is anti-authoritarian and the idea of church discipline is scary to most of us as we've heard horror stories about how cults have abused it. However, desperate times call for desperate measures and a biblical use of church discipline could aid in preserving marriages.
Secular Action
The devastating number of divorces is an area where the interests of church and state collide. Studies have shown that divorces lead to economic problems for states and communities, as well as the long term problems that come from children of broken marriages. It's no accident that the richest states are those with the lowest divorce rates.
The fact is that anyone who finds themselves in a bad marriage made a mistake at one time or another. Half the time, their biggest mistake was getting married in the first place. To prevent these bad matches or to help get the marriage off on a better start, marrying couples should be required to undergo several hours of marriage classes and/or marital counseling from a licensed minister or marriage counselor.
Secondly, no-fault divorce laws must be reformed. Marriage is the most important relationship a person has legally, yet it has all the force and effect of a month-to-month lease thanks to no-fault divorce laws. The laws should be reformed so a no-fault divorce can only be obtained if both parties consent. This would also reduce the court costs associated with issues of custody and division of the property as a no-fault divorce could only be obtained if both parties were agreed on it.
Those who believe in gay marriage have pointed to divorce as an argument against those who seek to protect marriage from same sex unions. I reject the argument that one evil prospering requires that we allow another blow to traditional family values. However, preserving the family is about more than one single issue and if we're going to be serious about it, we have to address all the issues that threaten the survival of the Family.
Maybe so...but again...there strikes INTERPRETATION, lol.
Many people have sacrificed their lives for less than this. Think of the early Church fathers and saints. All they had to do was recant their faith publicly to a Roman official, and they would have been spared the most horrible tortures imaginable. They could have merely apologized to God afterwards and resumed a secret Christian life, but they chose death and martyrdom instead.
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No offense, but drawing a comparison between a mayrtr to the Church or God is not the same thing. Those people suffered and died for their faith in Jesus Christ...not because of an abusive spouse. How does allowing yourself to be beaten to death (or separating and hiding in fear and then being killed by an abusive spouse) justify your faith in the Almighty? That is so completely different as to be on another planet.
Don't get me wrong, I doubt God would be much pleased with a man who would beat his wife, but I don't think it would be "good" for the wife to stay and take it. How many of these guys are master manipulators? Some of them don't become abusive until after they are married. A woman should suffer and die because she didn't know that? And that is a better thing in God's eyes than divorce? I honestly cannot believe that.
And your point?
No. you weren't fuzzy.
I just prefer to avoid pretending that I know 100% what someone else was thinking when they wrote something.
Huh? I was convsersing with exNavychick, and I certainly didn't intend to slight you by not pinging you. Just as I'm sure she didn't intend to slight you by not pinging you in her messages to me. And just as I'm sure you didn't intend to slight me when you wrote, in post 618 "I was talking about him [when I said he was a sanctimonious twit]."
I don't need your "sympathy".........my divorce was perfectly moral and perfectly right, contrary to your and my ex husband's opinions
I gather you've come in for a lot of abuse on this thread. I am sorry for that, and I have no desire to add to your troubles. But anyone who feels the need to claim that a divorce was "perfectly moral and perfectly right" is just not ready or willing to face reality.
I've got it now..............I wouldn't be a sinner if I was dead because I didn't commit the sin of divorcing the ex-husband.
Your theology is just lovely. I will not be subscribing to it any time soon.
There is absolutely NOTHING at all in the OT or the NT,which says that a woman should put up with being beaten to death...is there? Can you go cherry-pick some line that you interpret that way?
"It's better to instill a healthy core in individuals. Then all manner of sinful traps will be avoided even when presented."
SSAD is a maladaptive response to a homosexual molestation or seduction in the pre-adult years. The young are not always able to avoid being molested, and when they are, the danger exists that they will develop SSAD.
I refer to SSAD as the only transmissible mental disorder, because the victim is really not in control of whether he will develop SSAD or not, any more than the victims of depression, bipolar, OCD, or paranoid schizophrenia were in control when they fell ill.
It's impossible to say anything bad about a good upbringing, but a good upbringing will not necessarily prevent any of the mental disorders named above.
You said a mouthful right there.
some of this is getting downright idiotic.
And that is a better thing in God's eyes than divorce? I honestly cannot believe that
This argument, in one form or another, seems to be very common these days. "But surely God could not want me to...." despite the fact that God has said very clearly that He, in fact, does not want you to.
My own opinion, fwiw, is that God does not expect us to be sinless. On the contrary, He knows that we will sin over and over again throughout our lives. He is very forgiving. All that he asks in order to forgive us is that we
a) acknowlege our sin, and
b) ask for forgiveness.
That's a pretty good deal for us! The only way we can screw it up is to start telling God what WE think He ought to think (i.e., that "my divorce was perfectly moral and perfectly right or some other such nonsense.) rather than just asking for forgiveness and help.
Will have to check the Scripture ref. What I have ref'd I've read whether it was Jeremiah, or not.
Am sleepy. Will likely respond better to the rest of your post another day.
Blessings,
Staying married to someone who continuously puts your life in peril,is the same as not giving up one's faith in GOD? ARE YOU OLDER THAN 12?
Well, sir, I do believe I stated that I am not perfect, either. I know full well that I cannot say that I am. However, I do try to refrain from calling names. I have absolutely no problem debating theological intrepretations on this thread. I just don't like seeing it turn personal.
If you will note, I didn't refer that post merely to your attention. The Jezebel remark came from someone else that was also pinged. It was my mistake for not making sure that my response to that was directed at the proper person. For that, I will apologize to you.
As a matter of fact, though I have trouble believing that I am holding the wrong interpretation of what is a sin re: divorce, I don't presume to know better than God. If I am wrong, we both know He will set me straight, and in a hurry.
I stand by my remarks about deciding who is a sinner and who is not. It might be easier to take being called a sinner by someone who isn't interested in making you feel like a terrible, incorrigible person because you have sinned. We are all sinners...so I don't think it's a good idea to go around calling each other one...the point is moot. As for repentance, I stand by that. No elaboration or explanation is necessary.
If what my little "clique" (as you call it) was making you want to puke, maybe you could just think it was because you disagree? It wasn't drivel, by any means. It was expressing a viewpoint that you didn't agree with. That doesn't make it drivel.
I will admit I may have used some overblown language with sactimonious, hard-hearted, and dogmatic..., but I feel you have been far nastier to me than I have been to anyone on this thread. If I had offended you, please be aware it was not intentional, and I am sorry. But I cannot stand for being insulted either.
You, on the other hand, seem to be quite happy to offend me.
:-)
Now, there is a viewpoint I can agree with! LOL I totally agree that we more or less are expected to sin, but that we are also expected to be truly repentant when we mess up. I fully expect to be taken to task (lol) for where I have been wrong in my thinking.
As far as the rest goes, I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. Thank you for a very polite and well-reasoned discussion. It was refreshing.
Evidently, then, you have found a lie in the Bible.
The Bible says:
Train a child up in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
I have never found that violated. Never.
I've found those who claimed so. But a few questions demonstrated, they were wrong.
ahhhhh. I C.
My ex was I think 3 years younger. I was 21 she was 18. The only things I remember her being good at was drinking, affairs, and nagging. It made for a miserable 15 years.
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