Posted on 12/21/2004 11:49:02 PM PST by JohnHuang2
Wednesday, December 22, 2004
By Joseph Farah
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com
"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness. From then on and forevermore ..."
– Isaiah 9:6-7 (NASB)
As we celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ this week and prepare for 2005 next week, I can't help but think about how close we must be to the Second Coming – when the Lord will return for His church and personally rule over the Earth for 1,000 years.
Oh, I know, some of you don't believe in such things. You think it's just a bunch of silly superstition. Even some Christians don't believe in the Second Coming. Many prefer I stick to writing about news events of the physical world rather than arcane spiritual matters.
But, as a journalist, I can't ignore hard evidence – no matter where it may lead me. And the more I study the prophetic scriptures of the Holy Bible and look at the condition of our world today, the more convinced I become that we are nearing that time. In fact, I think we are very close.
For just as Jesus' virgin birth in Bethlehem was foretold by the Hebrew prophets hundreds of years earlier, so, too, was His return to Earth predicted. The only question is when.
The most dramatic evidence for His imminent return our generation has witnessed was the rebirth of the nation of Israel more than 50 years ago. The Jews, God's chosen people, were, as prophesied, scattered over the whole earth for nearly two millennia beginning shortly after Jesus' death on the cross. Yet, in my opinion, the scriptures leave no doubt that the Jewish state would exist once again before He returned.
Interestingly, Orthodox Jews have long taught that the world would last for 6,000 years before the Messiah would come and usher in a 1,000-year period of restful human history. Since God created the world in six days, according to Genesis 1:31, and rested on the seventh day, according to Genesis 2:1, they reasoned the world's history would climax the same way. They cite Psalms 90:4, which says: "For a thousand years in Thy sight are like yesterday when it passes by."
Likewise, Christians have looked to II Peter 3:8: "But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."
The early church understood this "six-day theory" of world history. It was widely accepted teaching for the first three centuries of the church. From the time of Adam, we've got genealogical records to show that 4,000 years passed until the time of Christ. From Jesus' time until the present age represents another 2,000 years for a total of 6,000 years or six days.
There's also a three-day theory: Jesus rose on the third day. Would the beginning of the third millennium – or thousand-year period – not be the likely time for His return to Earth? There is even strong scriptural evidence for such a theory provided in Hosea 6:2: "After two days will he revive us: in the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight." Note that this prophecy is not about the Resurrection of Jesus – it's either about the resurrection of Israel after 2,000 years of dispersal or the physical return of the Lord.
In 1772, Edward Gibbons published "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire," in which he cites early documents suggesting the Christian disciples of the first century were taught that Jesus would return after 2,000 years. We'll soon find out if they were right.
For many reasons, I believe Jesus is returning soon. But I'm especially drawn to II Timothy 3:1-5, which describes the state of the world in the "last days." Tell me if this doesn't sound like our world:
But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.
To me, that sounds like our world today.
Christmas represents a time of great hope for Christians. Of course, we're grateful that Jesus came about 2,000 years ago and died for our sins. Now we should be hopeful and expectant of His imminent return.
Merry Christmas. And happy birthday, Jesus.
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize you were where? Stateside? For the holidays? I've forgotten if you've moved back or not.
Blessings to you and yours,
I find this a mind bogglingly off the wall assertion totally devoid of any logical or solid relationship to the Scriptures in The Bible that I have repeatedly been blessed to read.
You said that Christ's thousand year reign began immediately after His ascension.
You appear to be too bright to have said such a thing. Amazing. For THAT to have been as you assert--Plenty of other Scriptures regarding that reign would have ALSO HAD TO HAVE BEGUN THEIR FULFILLMENT IMMEDIATELY AFTER CHRIST'S ASCENSION. There's not a shred of evidence that a single example has transpired.
The New Jerusalem has not arrived.
The New Temple has not been built.
Evil has not been removed from the earth and locked up for any of the 2000 years since.
Satan is still running around loose contrary to his state in the 1,000 year reign.
etc. etc. and etc.
Perhaps you'd do well to read the Scriptures again. And perhaps several more times after that, too.
There's plenty of evidence. You've simply either chosen to not study it, ignore it, or listen to others with alternative positions.
I won't belabor this debate b/c this is not the forum for it. It's highly inefficient. But consider several things.
First, consider that the what's in the Bible is meant for God's people, whomever they happen to be. God never, ever, put an emphasis on this earth other than saving lives in terms of eternal redemption generally speaking. I.e., Matt. 18:9 "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the (I)fiery hell."
It is man that makes God's kingdom of this world, not God. Jesus said plainly, that his kingdom was not of this world. That means then, now, or at anytime.
New Jerusalem is purely figurative.
The temple is his people. It's been rebuilt.
Satan's only weapon, death, has been neutralized. Earthly logic will counter that, but that's only when viewed thru a perspective which lacks an eternal basis. Life on earth is nothing compared to eternal life which is why Paul said 'to live is Christ, to die is gain.' The last enemy was death, and that has been defeated as the scripture states. It was defeated with Christ's sacrifice for us. Death could no longer be used as a tool by Satan.
God doesn't have anything to prove to anyone. Consider in the parable of Lazarus and the poor man. Lazarus pleads with Abraham to allow him to go back to his brothers to warn them under the notion that if a 'someone rises from the dead', then they will listen. Abraham tells him no, even if someone rises from the dead, they will not listen.
Jesus is only coming back to claim his own. The new Jerusalem will be elsewhere. 2 Peter 3 cannot make it any clearer that upon the return of Jesus, this earth is destroyed by fire permanently. You can argue that until you're blue in the face, but your argument is not with me. ;)
There's so much more, but I can tell you already believe what you've read in books other than the Bible. Conduct your own study. If you do, it'll take years. You'll see it all. Throw out what you know, start from scratch, and ask yourself the tough questions that make no sense otherwise.
Actually, my readings on the topic tend to be overwhelmingly the Bible.
This has been true since Jr High.
I find the other books rather tedius and full of speculations. Sometimes that's interesting to a point but usually anoyingly full of man's opinions.
I prefer to take Scripture at face value and see how God confirms it. That alone is pretty amazing.
I find that God has appeared to bend over backwards making very explicit enormous numbers of verses predicting very literal future events, factors etc in very measureable, tangible terms. It is as though He went to great pains to throw a long list of Scriptures in the face of the ideas you postulate.
Given how literal a long list of prophecies have ALREADY been fulfilled from Christ's life, death, resurrection etc. on . . . I have every confidence that He will continue to fulfill HIS word far more literally than many of a certain mind-set would dare imagine in their wildest fantacies.
I suppose God could have done it any number of ways. But HE SEEMS TO HAVE A FASCINATION OR HOBBY OR HABIT of doing it literally.
He takes great pains to predict things literally almost in specific petty terms that appear to not be worth that much detail in some of the areas and factors. THEN, HE DELIGHTS in fulfilling such incredible predictions amazingly to the tiniest detail--LITERALLY.
I'm sorry you haven't been paying enough attention to history and Biblical prophecies before to have realized that.
THIS is an excerpt from the full posting on the PROPHETIC SIGNS THREAD AT post #1,301 on this thread:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1274030/posts?page=1301#1301
Now, since the sun became responsible for our seasons, God then connects the Sun and its seasons with Israel itself (and you and and I can grab hold of this assurance as well, and these promises -- just as they were given to Israel and ALL his relatives)...
Wrong. The Bible says the Sun and moon are to "mark" the seasons. But the sun is not "responsible" for the seasons. Seasons are caused by the tilt of the earth's axis. The sun remains relatively constant throughout the year. It is the orientation of the earth to the sun that changes.
The promises were given to Abraham and his Seed, Jesus Christ (Gal. 3:16) We participate in those promises by our relationship to Christ, not to Israel.
This guy is messed up on both science and theology.
This has been true since Jr High.
I find the other books rather tedius and full of speculations. Sometimes that's interesting to a point but usually anoyingly full of man's opinions.
I prefer to take Scripture at face value and see how God confirms it. That alone is pretty amazing.
I find that God has appeared to bend over backwards making very explicit enormous numbers of verses predicting very literal future events, factors etc in very measureable, tangible terms. It is as though He went to great pains to throw a long list of Scriptures in the face of the ideas you postulate.
Given how literal a long list of prophecies have ALREADY been fulfilled from Christ's life, death, resurrection etc. on . . . I have every confidence that He will continue to fulfill HIS word far more literally than many of a certain mind-set would dare imagine in their wildest fantacies.
I suppose God could have done it any number of ways. But HE SEEMS TO HAVE A FASCINATION OR HOBBY OR HABIT of doing it literally.
He takes great pains to predict things literally almost in specific petty terms that appear to not be worth that much detail in some of the areas and factors. THEN, HE DELIGHTS in fulfilling such incredible predictions amazingly to the tiniest detail--LITERALLY.
I'm sorry you haven't been paying enough attention to history and Biblical prophecies before to have realized that.
Well Mr. Literal, it's going to be awfully interesting to see how He's gonna fulfill what you say on an earth that doesn't exist. ;)
2 Peter 3:
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
Yep! It's gonna be awfully interesting to see how He destroys the earth and then reigns on it. :D
P.S. The Bible is the only resource I used to formulate my positions on this. I began the effort back in the late 80s arduously, earlier than that 'less arduously', and came to my final conclusions only several years ago.
Sooooooooo funny.
You assume that you know precisely what each phrase in such sentences mean! You are braver than I on such scores.
I don't have any trouble, however, believing that God is well able to give us a new heaven and a new earth JUST AS HE SAID HE WOULD.
It's not very clear at all, to me, when He plans to do that. Nor is it crystal clear who, precisely, He will populate the new earth with.
I have a suspicion that it is after satan is fianlly locked up after the 1000 years of Peace. But that's just conjecture.
I try to avoid flat, arrogant assessments so popular with some.
When it gets "unclear" or "not so clear" is when people take it and twist it to attempt to come to conclusions that aren't there.
Either way, you avoided your earlier assertion. You said you take the Bible literally. That means a "dragon" is a literal dragon. A "sea" is a literal ocean. A "harlot" is a literal harlot. I can put down another 50 references.
I take the Bible literally as well. But you have to be able to distinguish between literary tools and metaphors/allegories/figures of speech and figurative speech ala Jesus saying "I am the door..."
The mistake that people make/have made with Revelation, is that they try to apply it to a very small amount of time. It's circular or repetitive in its layout. It's a very high level view, the highest in the Bible, whose perspective even predates man and following the history of the earth.
As to your comment:
It's not very clear at all, to me, when He plans to do that. Nor is it crystal clear who, precisely, He will populate the new earth with.
Now you've altered your argument and don't seem so sure of your earlier statements. You made it clear that He's coming back to reign on this earth. Now it's a new one. Then you say that he hasn't made it clear who will populate the "new earth." I disagree. It's crystal clear!
Revelation 21 makes it unmistakeably clear!
"27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."
Seems pretty clear to me, especially for anyone taking this literally!
Also, in 21, notice that "Jerusalem" clearly means something other than the Jerusalem that many interpret Jerusalem as throught out prophetic references in the NT age.
It continues in 22. But it's pretty literally clear to me. Again, it only gets "unclear" when it's applied to attempt to fit interpretations that make no sense and otherwise do not apply.
; )
One more thing; you said:
I don't have any trouble, however, believing that God is well able to give us a new heaven and a new earth JUST AS HE SAID HE WOULD.
I have no trouble believing that God is both able to do and will do what he says. It's His doing what he didn't say or doing something other than what he says where I am raising issues. : )
more goodies!
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1308718/posts
Thank you so much for the link!
You are most welcome!
The
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1308458/posts?page=716#716
thread became super hostile. Lightening rod moi! Sigh.
Have a blessed New Year.
THX.
Fascinating twists you take on my statements and Biblical statements.
I don't know precisely in a list of areas which to take HOW literally and which to take HOW symbolically. I don't think anyone has it all figured out.
I haven't really changed my position or statements on that or anything else in this discussion. Sorry if my language has given any other impression.
OF course the new earth and the 1,000 reign before that are to be populated with THE RIGHTEOUS. But that could cover different parameters depending on a lot of things. And particularly where do the mortal pure in heart come from--as best as one can tell, evidently from surviving through the GREAT TRIBULATION. But I don't think a lot of man's perspective on a lot of that is as precisely known and rock solid in interpretation as a lot of people seem to think--even you.
It's reasonable for reaonable people to come to different conclusions about things stated with less than microscopic precision.
I think it's a bit something for you to assess others as twisting meanings etc. and you not.
I don't see it that way.
Sorry to hear that, Quix.
Some was sharing too much of my sensitive spiritual perspective to other than believers! Some of it was the knee-jerk hostility of those allergic to anything Conservative Christian/supernatural or full of conviction.
Thanks for your prayers!
Zechariah 11:15-17.
It's pretty simple really. If you have to go through a book/letter such as Revelation and "figure out" which words are literal and which are figurative or metaphorical, then that should be a flag as it was for me years back. You see every Tom, Dick, and Harry saying which words mean what and start twisting and contorting everything to conform to the "truth" that they've been taught.
Revelation is meant to be taken figuratively. That doesn't mean it's not literal, it's literal using the literary tools of metaphors and allegories. To start ripping it to shreds and stating, often within sentences, that 'this word is literal while this is not' is ridiculous by any standard. Yet, that's what happens. My finding is that fewer than 1% of those holding a position on this have done any significant research themselves and that's being polite. I've discussed this with pastors who hold a position in their church, again, the "expert pastor" in that church, that can only point me to books in the book store. Not good.
You mention a great tribulation. Jesus spoke of this. But why do you hold a view of the underlying assumption that this "great tribulation", read about the details in Matt. 24. Why does everyone assume that this tribulation is visible and identifiable to all? Jesus himself gives his people ways to identify certain things, but maintains that no one can predict the day of his return.
With the view you now hold, once some of these 'events' occur, all it takes is a third or fourth grade education in math coupled with a rudimentary knowledge of scripture top pinpoint the return to the day +/- a few hours. These things should be flags to you. The tribulation is going on now. Look around you. You come to FR. What do you see about the moral condition of this world? Wasn't that Jesus' focus, spiritual matters primarily with morality, goodness, and righteousness as the lynchpins! What is happening to morality and God today?
Read 2 Tim 3. See what it says about how "christians" will treat the topic of God. Don't you see these things happening? As well, there are a good many things not so well defined about 'time' and 'the days' just prior to the return of Christ. Movies depict this "Terminator" type of condition on the earth with all kinds of blatantly "evil" things happening. But is this what Jesus said the earth would be like in the days just prior to his return? Matt. 24: 38,39 paints the picture the way that it will be. Yet, many continue to turn it into something that it's not.
Also, what you read about there is this thing they call the rapture. Yes, there will be a "removal" of God's people from this earth, but that preceeds its destruction per some of what we've already discussed. The scriptures that many take from that there will be time on earth after that make no such statements. Read them if you don't believe me. 1 Cor 15 and 2 Thess. 4. Many take "will not preceed those that have fallen asleep" and 'interpreted' it to mean that there's some large time period in between a so-called "rapture" and yet another, a third coming, at some later date and time, which again, is then easily predictable. Forget the notion that there is no "third coming" mentioned anywhere.
Now, I already know your arguments to those things, so relaz there. LOL This is just for you to chew on. Do with it what you will. But if you can get past this stuff, you'll find that all of a sudden things seemingly completely unrelated in the Bible will all of a sudden make so much more sense that it'll be eye-opening to ya.
It's laid out VERY simply. It only gets complicated when it's redefined by people not understanding it. They confuse matters. God's people do not have to be confused on this topic. Take what you know, and start asking yourself all the real questions of things that don't make sense yet are explained away by other things that when added up just don't have the circle come around to reconnect with itself. Then look into those things.
Part of this includes reading through your Bible without "study helps." You'll find it amazing how much you can uncover. As well, I said it's simple, but it does take time and personal study. Understand things such as where and why each book letter was written before you read them.
I think it's a bit something for you to assess others as twisting meanings etc. and you not.
I don't see it that way.
OK. : )
But it can't all be right! And yes, the Bible in this sense can be right with microscopic precision insofar as what it actually says. The problem is that what it actually says provides FAR less detail than most, just about all, seem to extrapolate from it.
Anyway, you do with it what you want. I'm familiar with every primary theory out there and began to try to unravel this back in the early 80s and it's taken some time, but the biggest headway was made when I took a straight read through Scripture a few years back without any aides whatsoever other than the historical timeline found in Stong's Concordance as well as some basic historical background information on the circumstances on the authors and times of each book/letter written.
You are free to read/believe/interpret as you wish. ; )
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