Posted on 12/09/2004 2:07:54 PM PST by dandelion
It's a great question: why don't we have enough armor? Kind of like it's great to see a contestant win a lot of money on a game show - but it's a LOT better when it's not manufactured.
Fixed. Staged. Chroreographed.
Whatever you want to call it, the news is always better when the reporter doesn't insert himself into the mix, as Edward Pitts has supposedly done.
According to Drudge:
From: EDWARD LEE PITTS, MILITARY AFFAIRS Sent: Wednesday, December 8, 2004 4:44 PM To: Staffers
Subject: RE: Way to go
I just had one of my best days as a journalist today. As luck would have it, our journey North was delayed just long enough see I could attend a visit today here by Defense Secretary Rumsfeld. I was told yesterday that only soldiers could ask questions so I brought two of them along with me as my escorts. Before hand we worked on questions to ask Rumsfeld about the appalling lack of armor their vehicles going into combat have. While waiting for the VIP, I went and found the Sgt. in charge of the microphone for the question and answer session and made sure he knew to get my guys out of the crowd.
There was this thing, and we called it "journalistic ethics". But enough about ancient history - when the chips go down the press will always say "it doesn't mean the story/question/incident/expense report isn't true". Fair enough, it's a great question and it deserves to go on the editorial page. It does not deserve on the "news" page when a soldier (who was coached by the reporter) is picked by the mic man (who was also coached by the reporter) so other reporters can specifically target an individual with the administration. These Q&A sessions have been held in the past, but always without the Old Media present. This is the reason why.
But on to the great question: yes, they should ask this, and they should get an honest answer. Do you really want to know why we don't have enough armor? Let's find out why Dick Durbin (D, PA) says we don't have any armor...
From the Congressional Record, Feb. 11, 2004. (PDF):
We should do better. I said to the Secretary of the Army: Isn't this a priority? He said: It is our highest priority to build the 8,400 doors for these Humvees. He told me that many will be made in my State at the Rock Island Arsenal . I visited the Rock Island Arsenal and saw the first sets of doors come off for the Humvees, and the workers were so proud. They knew they had done something significant.
I said to the commander at the arsenal : How long will it take us now? We need 8,400 sets and we are also doing them at Anniston. He said: We are going to get these doors built in one year.
One year? In World War II, we were building bombers in 72 hours and ships in 30 and 60 days, and we need 1 year to make the armor-plated doors to protect the Humvees so that fewer of our men and women in uniform will have to go to Walter Reed Hospital for prosthetic devices and medical treatment.
I said: Why is it taking one year? He said: Because there is only one steel-fabricating plant left in America, and it is in Pennsylvania. It makes the steel that we can convert into the armor plating for these doors. We are using everything they produce as fast as they produce it.
So when the issue comes up about loss of manufacturing jobs, and loss of American jobs, and loss of our industrial base, it is more than a cold discussion of statistics; it is a discussion about the reality of our economy and the reality we face. Whether you live in North Carolina, where we have lost textile jobs, or you live in Illinois, where we have lost steel jobs, the fact is, as we lose these jobs, we lose our capacity. When it comes to something as basic as steel, that capacity plays out so that our soldiers in Iraq today are more vulnerable to enemy attack because we cannot produce the steel in America.
What makes this all the more damning is the fact that this information came from a Democrat in the now-dashed hope of making the economy a priority in an election year. Never mind that Durbin never points to the fact that this decimation of American Steel and the manufacturing industry happened as a whole under the Clinton Administration. Obviously, American products should be used to create American Armor, so as to avoid any chance of sabotage or low quality. But now we have to buy the vast majority of our steel from foreign countries, many of whom may disagree with our policies, and to whom we have to pay top dollar. Americans weren't supposed to do that anymore, remember? We were all going to work in those new Hi-Tech industries, we were all going to have cushy high-paying service jobs, so Clinton gave away our manufacturing jobs and all the contracts to foreign governments. Now most of our steel comes from China. Remember?
The real recipient of this question should be ever member of Congress who let American Steel die - NOT Donald Rumsfeld. A real reporter would ask the question of those who are responsible, not send in a stooge to ask it of those they'd like to see blamed for this mess.
Why don't we have armor?
Because we only have ONE American factory that makes steel for our armor, that's why. IF we want more American armor, we need to manufacture more American Steel.
It's really too bad the Old Media doesn't ask this question of those who could do something about it. But it appears they are only interested in manufacturing the news...
Konaice, you and I usually see eye to eye on most things, so I'm following you seriously. I've checked out your link, but you are looking at general mills/fabricators/manufacturers here - not at the specific armor-grade fabricators. Durbin, if he is telling the truth, is referencing the particular fabricators needed for high-grade specialized steel. I'm no expert, but look at this statement:
"Because we only have ONE American factory that makes steel for our armor, that's why. IF we want more American armor, we need to manufacture more American Steel."
This is about "steel for our armor" not steel in general. We should have the capacity to produce this - we did produce all our armor at one time not that long ago.
As far as research goes, I'm directly quoting what Durbin said in the congressional record, and it is linked and documented. If you'd like, I'll add the phrase - "IF what Dick Durbin says is true"... that way the Dems have to explain it if it's not. He says he's quoting the Secretary of the Army here, so it's Durbin's problem if it's not true...
I'd like to know why we aren't subsidizing more of these "mini-mills" to produce this armor - you know, I'd like to take that money from the National Endowment for the Arts and spend it on armor instead.
I think it would be a fair trade to give a mini-mill the seed capital to produce armor instead of giving to leftist performance artists...
A three star general in Kuwait just stated on FOX that all Humvees going to Iraq would be armored.
Armor is not required nor desired on all Humvees. In fact for many missions the soldiers prefer unarmored Humvees because they are more agile.
But then Ted Kennedy, who doesn't even know how to drive a car across a bridge safely, and his ilk, wouldn't know the difference and believe that every mission in Iraq, requires an Abram tank.
Free trade bump!
And the damage done in the past. I left out factor #4: The cost of paying gigantic pensions and health care to retired workers, whose powerful unions extorted ridiculous benefits in the 1960s and 1970s.
Again, the Chinese and new companies don't have this to contend with. (Ironically, if rates of smoking had stayed constant, the American steel companies might be okay. All those retired workers were supposed to die off a lot sooner.)
I agree with the points the article is making. But let us remember, long before Slicko got in, the steel industry was in dire condition in this country. He simply helped hasten a bit more it's total demise, by signing on the the Most Favorable Trading deals with China. This issue with steel and many many other industries that left our shores has been going on for well over twenty years. Guess what folks. What is said here about steel can be said about many commerical electronics and other industries considered quite critical to our countries welfare. Imagine the soon coming day when we will have to depend on China to produce certain critical electronic weapontry for us? Don't laught. China is quickly becoming a bonified competitor in all forms of electronics, which include state of the art Integrated Circuit manufacturing. The day will come when the few remaining IC manufactures in this country can no longer compete with the state owned Chinese firms. These IC companies such as Intel and TI just to name two, will have to be government subsidized to stay in business or just think who we will have to buy our military hardware from?
Can you imagine having to request the Chinese to develop some extremely new generation Digital Signal Processor for instance along with the supposedly secret firmware for a new weapon system we want for our military?
Please don't joke or make stupid un-informed remarks on this issue. Our national security continues to be eroded due to extremly poor decisions in Washington. I cannot for the life of me understand, assuming that our presidents, and congress are truly patriots and only want a truly strong, solvent, and soverign nation, how they continue to allow us to go down the tubes in so many ways.
So what is mentioned in this article about the steel issue can be extended to many other equally critical industries we require to keep our country not only safe but on top of things, military wise as well as from a commerical standpoint. Please don't say things like well hells bells, Raytheon or lets say Northrop can manufacture it's required new and current generation IC's for instance. This is a lame joke at best. Many defense oriented companies used to do that very thing, but dropped IC manufacturing for instance due to the enourmous amount of capital expenditures to both manufacture IC's as well as produce weapon systems.
Please do take my word on this. It is true and anyone that worked for these companies and have a balanced historical view of what has been going on for some forty years will back me up on this point.
We are in more trouble then a lot of folks realize.
As for my verbage, I try to keep it very low tech in nature and terse,as not to confuse the real issue. Point is, things are not to good in Disney Land.
"Because we only have ONE American factory that makes steel for our armor, that's why. IF we want more American armor, we need to manufacture more American Steel."
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Steel comes in different grades, so even if the soldiers didn't care where it comes from at first, they would care after it failed.
If only there were not those other considerations like: The right type of alloy or if that plant is available or meets the requirements in QC or whatever else. Just because some firm pours metal somewhere does not mean they are capable in producing armored doors for HMMWVs or anything else dealing with armor for that matter. You may be right, but I doubt the answer is so simple as finding another vendor.
Red6
No, I agree with you totally. My father was in the defense industry re: development and design for decades. What you are saying is true.
We can't even put out enough armor for our vehicles right now - what will happen if we ever go to war with China?
2. Even if there is, that's no reason why we shouldn't be ordering the steel from the Japs.
Bump for later
Thomas register has a search. Key armor steel in and you get a fair number of hits.
But steel is steel, and can be made by almost (but not quite) any steel plant that can pour general steel.
Its all in the recipe. Just like any brewery can (and do under contract) make almost any kind of beer.
Just because some firm pours metal somewhere does not mean they are capable in producing armored doors for HMMWVs or anything else dealing with armor for that matter.
The steel plant does not make the doors, the guy complaining about the lack of steel made the doors.
Just more jobs Americans refuse to do!
Maybe if we get down on our knees and beg the communist dictator that runs Red China, he might have mercy on us and send some Humvee armor along with all the other containers of communist slave labor goods that are shipped here everyday!?
Probably only one qualified supplier. I would imagine it's a special process of some sort, not just any old sheet metal plant. The word fabrication, to me, means taking steel and doing forming and assembly work with raw sheet steel. There are still a number of plants in the US producing the raw materials, many of them in the South.
Of course, and depend on China for our manufacturing/defense needs ... works for you???
Perhaps the steel workers unions that are left should stop asking for more money
Yeah, what's that matter with these greedy a$$holes that they won't work for the Chinese nickel?
This is the whole point - THESE are the questions we (and supposedly the Old Media) should be asking. THIS is the dialogue that should be taking place. What's happening instead? The Old Media keeps shoving the question at the military, not at the Defense Industry and those in charge of IT. They are not asking business leaders, or congressional leaders, or anyone else who could actually DO anything about it. There are ways to make this armor, but they are looking to ask questions about how to bring it about.
Why? Because the Old Media doesn't really care about armor.
They only want to manufacture "stories" to try and damage the military. God forbid that they should actually ask a question of someone who could actually HELP the soldiers get the armor they need...
This "one steel plant" could be disinformation.
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