Posted on 12/09/2004 2:07:54 PM PST by dandelion
It's a great question: why don't we have enough armor? Kind of like it's great to see a contestant win a lot of money on a game show - but it's a LOT better when it's not manufactured.
Fixed. Staged. Chroreographed.
Whatever you want to call it, the news is always better when the reporter doesn't insert himself into the mix, as Edward Pitts has supposedly done.
According to Drudge:
From: EDWARD LEE PITTS, MILITARY AFFAIRS Sent: Wednesday, December 8, 2004 4:44 PM To: Staffers
Subject: RE: Way to go
I just had one of my best days as a journalist today. As luck would have it, our journey North was delayed just long enough see I could attend a visit today here by Defense Secretary Rumsfeld. I was told yesterday that only soldiers could ask questions so I brought two of them along with me as my escorts. Before hand we worked on questions to ask Rumsfeld about the appalling lack of armor their vehicles going into combat have. While waiting for the VIP, I went and found the Sgt. in charge of the microphone for the question and answer session and made sure he knew to get my guys out of the crowd.
There was this thing, and we called it "journalistic ethics". But enough about ancient history - when the chips go down the press will always say "it doesn't mean the story/question/incident/expense report isn't true". Fair enough, it's a great question and it deserves to go on the editorial page. It does not deserve on the "news" page when a soldier (who was coached by the reporter) is picked by the mic man (who was also coached by the reporter) so other reporters can specifically target an individual with the administration. These Q&A sessions have been held in the past, but always without the Old Media present. This is the reason why.
But on to the great question: yes, they should ask this, and they should get an honest answer. Do you really want to know why we don't have enough armor? Let's find out why Dick Durbin (D, PA) says we don't have any armor...
From the Congressional Record, Feb. 11, 2004. (PDF):
We should do better. I said to the Secretary of the Army: Isn't this a priority? He said: It is our highest priority to build the 8,400 doors for these Humvees. He told me that many will be made in my State at the Rock Island Arsenal . I visited the Rock Island Arsenal and saw the first sets of doors come off for the Humvees, and the workers were so proud. They knew they had done something significant.
I said to the commander at the arsenal : How long will it take us now? We need 8,400 sets and we are also doing them at Anniston. He said: We are going to get these doors built in one year.
One year? In World War II, we were building bombers in 72 hours and ships in 30 and 60 days, and we need 1 year to make the armor-plated doors to protect the Humvees so that fewer of our men and women in uniform will have to go to Walter Reed Hospital for prosthetic devices and medical treatment.
I said: Why is it taking one year? He said: Because there is only one steel-fabricating plant left in America, and it is in Pennsylvania. It makes the steel that we can convert into the armor plating for these doors. We are using everything they produce as fast as they produce it.
So when the issue comes up about loss of manufacturing jobs, and loss of American jobs, and loss of our industrial base, it is more than a cold discussion of statistics; it is a discussion about the reality of our economy and the reality we face. Whether you live in North Carolina, where we have lost textile jobs, or you live in Illinois, where we have lost steel jobs, the fact is, as we lose these jobs, we lose our capacity. When it comes to something as basic as steel, that capacity plays out so that our soldiers in Iraq today are more vulnerable to enemy attack because we cannot produce the steel in America.
What makes this all the more damning is the fact that this information came from a Democrat in the now-dashed hope of making the economy a priority in an election year. Never mind that Durbin never points to the fact that this decimation of American Steel and the manufacturing industry happened as a whole under the Clinton Administration. Obviously, American products should be used to create American Armor, so as to avoid any chance of sabotage or low quality. But now we have to buy the vast majority of our steel from foreign countries, many of whom may disagree with our policies, and to whom we have to pay top dollar. Americans weren't supposed to do that anymore, remember? We were all going to work in those new Hi-Tech industries, we were all going to have cushy high-paying service jobs, so Clinton gave away our manufacturing jobs and all the contracts to foreign governments. Now most of our steel comes from China. Remember?
The real recipient of this question should be ever member of Congress who let American Steel die - NOT Donald Rumsfeld. A real reporter would ask the question of those who are responsible, not send in a stooge to ask it of those they'd like to see blamed for this mess.
Why don't we have armor?
Because we only have ONE American factory that makes steel for our armor, that's why. IF we want more American armor, we need to manufacture more American Steel.
It's really too bad the Old Media doesn't ask this question of those who could do something about it. But it appears they are only interested in manufacturing the news...
It's not that simple.
I may be wrong and if you know better please explain. (I mean no sarcasm)
Much of the casting work you may see is for commemorative plates, church bells, busts and other things. A lot of these firms are INCAPABLE of producing the types of products we are talking about here.
Example (I'm not 100%, but fairly sure about this). The particular vehicle I work out of has a 5083 Aluminum Alloy inner hull and 7017 Alloy outer hull. The outer hull is a laminate and is rolled. The inside then still has a polyaramid fiber pressed into a resin. All of this makes for a sandwich of materials that is highly resistant to cracking from a blast, while being bullet resistant, yet low spalling if penetrated by something really big. It won't rust, is fairly light and so makes for a good all around protection while being long lived and low maint.
I do believe there is ONE place in the whole US that makes the actual armor for the M1 in Indiana which is then later put together in Lima OH.
I have no insight nor claim to be an expert. Yet I bet that our subs are made to a SPEC out of special materials which only one or two firms in all the US could possibly make. The stuff needs to be strong as hell, resistant to oxidation in a horrid environment with low magnetic properties, be predictable, take repeated stress, rapid change in load……….. This is some complex stuff we’re talking about!
There are many different types of alloys and casting processes. Just the size of the vessel containing the molten metal will eliminate some already. The QC (If the metal cools wrong it will be defective even though it looks OK to the naked eye), ability to mass produce, desire to do this............ I truly suspect that before all is said and done you end up with not many out there who are really capable of this type of work. You are not dealing with a Sherman tank. Today when we talk of armor on vehicles we deal with specialty materials even at the HMMWV level. Even the Stryker uses Ceramics overtop of special alloy with a Kevlar liner. Look at our body armor itself. That stuff is Alumina I do believe. There is body armor out there made with boron carbide! You need special bits on the mills to work with some of these materials. You have to cast the stuff just right or else you end up with tension in the material and it could fail if hit. Some of these materials are not cast at all. Building armored carriages is a science of its own today. Or so I see it.
Our government has its agendas and makes mistakes. However, when they say they are trying all they can to get armored vehicles to the troops I 100% believe them. I don’t think it was neither bad planning or a lack of concern. I think it’s a sheer bottleneck in capacity. You must understand, this capacity is not dedicated to HMMWVs solely. There are Strykers, HMMWVs, armored civilian look a like cars, MP vehicles, HEMMTS, HETTs, The Marines 5 ton truck……..all kinds of stuff that is armored and being built now. So our capacity is divided among several competing projects.
I don’t think it’s as simple as you say.
Red6
Sad, but good point, Pole!
The "lowest cost" option is something called "ballistic steel". Note the "threat level" the first category of steel will protect against. UL 1-3 (NIJ IIIA) are handguns only. The middle category of steel is good for NIJ III and UL 4-6, which seems to be your typical military rifle fire. The last category is UL-7 will protect against high-power rifles.
You know, it's not like you go down to the "armor store" and buy some magic armor that will protect you. You have to determine an acceptable level of protection versus weight and cost. [more on ballistic specifications]. [How Armor Protects a Car] You must also factor in replacement cost, meaning if does the armor get "used up" if it is hit with a volley of bullets, or is it still useable.
So far, I haven't found who in the U.S. makes "ballistic steel". It's widely available from China, though. Memo to Rumsfeld: Buy certified level III ballistic steel at an affordable price Size: 8" x 10" Availability: Usually ships in 3-4 business days..
Now we can just sit back and wait to see how long it takes for this to get into the MSM.
Ya know there's a certain silent satisfaction in being the impetus to a story that snowballs and grows with the help of others.
See, it's not the steel so much, as the required hardening and tempering processes.
Thank me.
Durbin referred to a mill in Pennsylvania.
What you just posted is a "manufacturer" not a foundry.
Clifton Steel works with the steel but it's doesn't look like they found* the steel.
"He told me that many will be made in my State at the Rock Island Arsenal . I visited the Rock Island Arsenal and saw the first sets of doors come off for the Humvees, and the workers were so proud. They knew they had done something significant."
Rock Island Arsenal is a government installation staffed by government employees.
"I said: Why is it taking one year? He said: Because there is only one steel-fabricating plant left in America, and it is in Pennsylvania. It makes the steel that we can convert into the armor plating for these doors. We are using everything they produce as fast as they produce it."
Really? Even though the steel maker says he can ramp up production by 22%? The steel maker also says the government hasn't asked him to? Perhaps there is a problem with increasing production by the government employees at the government installation?
Folks, there is a base reduction effort going on right now. The list of installations to be closed is due in May. One suspects this might have something to do with it.
A cursory glance at your post leads me thus: if imports are at 30%, and they rise another 20%, they are now at 36% (20%of 30%), not 50%.
Here's another thread on this subject:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1298471/posts
You'll notice this little tidbit in that article:
"Only some of the work has been contracted out, mainly to a plant in Ohio run by O'Gara-Hess & Eisenhardt, a unit of Armor Holdings. The rest of the kits are being produced by civilian employees of the Army working at depots in New York and six other states, where they are using laser-cutting machines to cut steel purchased directly from two mills."
And:
"Armor Holdings also produces armor for new Humvees, and the company said it told the Army last month that it had the capacity to increase its production to 550 vehicles a month, compared with the 450 vehicles is handling now."
Since only a fraction of this work is being "contracted out" to Amrican industry and since there is the capacity to produce more armor that is not being used, then this has exactly nothing to do with 'free trade' or china or protecting American jobs despite the fervent hopes of the protectionist crowd.
[Page: S534] GPO's PDF
What does it mean today to us to have fewer steel companies and fewer steelmaking jobs? Let me give you one illustration. Today, in Iraq, there are 8,400 Humvees that our troops are using in the field. These 8,400 vehicles are special problems for us because they are not equipped with armored plating. If you go to Walter Reed and meet the amputees and injured soldiers, many will tell you: Senator, do something to make the Humvees safer.
So when I went to the Department of the Army and said, ``What are you going to do about the armored doors needed on Humvees?'' they said, ``It is our highest priority.'' I asked them how they would make them. They said they are going to turn to arsenals in Rock Island and Anniston Depot and contract it out. I asked: How long will it take to make 8,400 armored doors and get them there as quickly as possible to protect our soldiers? They said: If we work night and day, we can get it done in 1 year. One year? During World War II, we were building bombers every 12 hours and ships every 30 days, and we need a year to build 8,400 sets of doors to protect these Humvees?
I was incredulous and asked why. They said: Senator, we
only have one steelmaking plant left in America, which is in Pennsylvania , which has the capacity to make the steel we need for the armor on these doors. There is one left in America.
When countries violate trade agreements and dump steel in the U.S., ruin our steel industry, close down the businesses, kill the jobs, endanger retiree benefits--after that happens, we find ourselves in this situation where we need steel , the best in the world need it desperately, and we cannot make it in the U.S.
When the President talks about a strong America in the future, it involves education and job training and helping businesses pay for health insurance but also enforcing trade agreements. I supported the President's tariffs on steel as the only way to answer this dumping of steel . Are we going to quit now, since the WTO has threatened they will impose $2 billion in tariffs? I hope not. Frankly, I think we need to take a more aggressive stand when it comes to building our economy and jobs for the future.
I would suggest that Clinton was too busy selling out the US (that's treason, yup) to the PRChinese to worry about creeping socialism.
From his track record, he didn't want it to "creep;" he simply wanted the US to drop dead.
There's little question that Pentagon specifications have something to do with it--not to mention the Pentagon procurement process (qualification of the vendor, does he/she/it have EEO, etc.)
Remember that Bob McNamara personally intervened in the design of the M-16, which made the weapon damn near inoperable in the field...
Then, it must be fabricated into the required shapes, an operation requiring very special tools on hardened steel.
Did you even read the info on Clifron's website?
Dear Dumbass: one does NOT source military necessities from OTHER countries.
Hell, intelligent US citizens did not buy foreign CARS for a number of years, based on the possibility that the country of origin could become an enemy of the US, thus cutting off spare-parts supplies.
Are you drinking the KoolAid of the Clinton "make nice and everybody will love us" era?
The Industrial Revolution began at about the same time the American Revolution did.
And whether it was Washington, Jefferson, Davis, or later Presidents, it is absolutely true that the tariffs emplaced on foreign goods were there specifically to protect and encourage American industry.
MU, and everybody else. If China is the big threat militarily in the future why do they still have MFN status? Especially since they refuse to revalue their currency. This is akin to selling high grade steel and oil to Germany and Japan in the 30's. It makes no sense.
that sound is me giggling...
There has been a shift in steel production, from iron-ore based toward recycled-based over the last 20 years. Generally speaking, the recycled steel is much cheaper to make (for obvious reasons) and some US firms such as NuCor have popped up, without union labor, to fill the need.
The old-line steelmakers who 'do it from scratch' (USSteel, Bethlehem, Wheeling-Pittsburgh) are generally union shops and have a lot of very expensive equipment, not to mention mines, ships to transport ore, etc., etc.
The Chinese have also discovered recycled steel and are buying scrap like there's no tomorrow. THIS has raised the price of scrap, thus raising the price of recycled steel.
Now even NuCor is hurting for margin, because some buyers of their product have long-term contracts binding NuCor to a fixed price.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.