Posted on 12/08/2004 7:23:08 AM PST by stevejackson
related topics:
Draft In Which T.R.N.C. Was Called As
Turkish Cypriot State Passed From Political Committee
Anadolu Agency ^ | 6/14/2004 | correspondent
Posted on 09/12/2004 7:18:55 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1214248/posts
EU irked by Turkish adultery law
BBC News ^ | Thursday, 9 September, 2004 | correspondent
Posted on 09/09/2004 10:34:26 AM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1211132/posts
EU Rebuff Would Affect Ties With Turkey: Turkish PM
Agence France Presse ^ | Sunday, September 12, 2004 | correspondent
Posted on 09/12/2004 7:13:34 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1214238/posts
France cools towards EU project
BBC Paris ^ | Thursday, 28 October, 2004 | Caroline Wyatt
Posted on 11/03/2004 11:43:48 PM PST by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1269998/posts
Germany and France to take common position on Turkey
EU Observer ^ | Dec 3 2004 | Richard Carter
Posted on 12/06/2004 10:29:46 AM PST by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1295533/posts
Parliament president to deliver verdict on Turkey
EU Observer ^ | Nov 4 2004 | Andrew Beatty
Posted on 11/07/2004 8:03:03 PM PST by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1274000/posts
Why Turkish business needs the EU
Daily Star (Lebanon) ^ | Saturday, September 25, 2004 | Michael Glackin
Posted on 10/01/2004 10:41:52 AM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1232764/posts
Strategic reasons for Turkish EU membership 'unconvincing', says studyReported in Die Welt, the study by the East-European Studies Institute says that because Turkish membership of the EU will bring little economic benefit, the emphasis of the discussion has shifted instead to the strategic benefits... It also criticises claims by the German government that a democratic Turkey could be a shining example to Islamic states in the Middle East as "difficult to understand". The study has been picked up by opposition Christian Democrat politicians - who favour Turkey having a 'privileged partnership' with the EU rather than full membership. Bavaria's Europe minister Eberhard Sinner (CSU) said that the study should be "required reading for every head of state and government in Europe".
by Honor Mahony
10.11.2004
(Thousands at Cologne Anti-Violence Rally)
I like the EU Observer site for content, but it has a constant popup window, and the scripts seem to run a long time as the windows load.Turkey against EU membership at 'any cost'Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul has said that his country should not pursue membership of the EU at "any cost"... Referring to the decision next month by EU leaders on whether to open membership negotiations with Turkey, the foreign minister said "we will do our best and see what happens ... If the outcome does not satisfy us, we will leave it there; if it does we will go on". Mr Gul told MPs that the EU was wary of admitting a country as vast as Turkey but was forced to consider the issue when Ankara conducted a series of reforms in order to adhere to the EU's political criteria... "But we cannot accept an unconditional and indefinite absence of free movement from Turkey to another country".
by Honor Mahony
November 11, 2004
EU Observer
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What are you talking about? Did you guys read the article. Do you have sources to contradict the article? (I have about 1/4 of the article to go to finish. So far I see only that Turkey is adopting the EU position.) Yes, we are currently not popular among the majority of Turks. There is no way radical Islam will dominate Turkey unless it can defeat the Army.
Modern Turkey was founded in 1923. It's a secular constitutional democratic Republic. Does Germany have a Nazi sphere of influence? Is Germany in danger from fanatic Nazis? Modern Turkey is not a shrunken Ottoman Empire.
I had lots of comments. It was a great article. My experience from living in Ankara for almost a year was that the Turkish people are great people and very proud of their secular constitutional Republic. I was pleased that the author cited the EU influence and did not stray too far into radical Islam and the AKP. The EU says the National Security Council (military) has to butt out. Go figure. Its duty is to protect the secular constitutional Republic from radical Islam. The last time was 1997.
I have opted to just post this.
Any joint operations would also dull Ankara's perception of the strategic threat posed by autonomous Iraqi Kurds. Despite European propaganda to the contrary, Turkey does not discriminate against Kurds as such. Shi'ite Iran discriminates against the predominantly Sunni Kurds on the basis of religion. Syria and Iraq have histories of ethnic discrimination against the Kurds. But, Turkey embraces Kurds so long as they take pride in their Turkish citizenship.[44] At least two of Turkey's ten presidents and more than a few generals and politicians who fought against the PKK were themselves of Kurdish origin.
So we would let our southwest and California become primarily Spanish-speaking? IMO much of Turkey's bad image originated via Soviet propaganda during the Cold War. We've been allies and friends for decades.
One avenue open to U.S. policymakers would be to pressure the two main Iraqi Kurdish parties, Masoud Barzani's Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) and Jalal Talabani's Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK) to join forces with the United States and Turkey in the fight against the PKK. With such a step, these parties would signal that, past rhetoric aside, Iraqi Kurds were more interested in Turkey's welfare rather than its demise.
Now you're talking.
That is either simplistic or misinformed statement. ONLY RADICAL MOSLEMS WEAR HIJAB! If you take a picture on the street of Ankara today, and twenty years ago, you will quickly realize how the Turkish population finally give up their secular policy, and relented to radical Islam (the majority of women wear the hijab now). The pressure from the Muslim media in Iran, and the Arab world to force Muslims to accept fanatical Islam was successful; basically because 1) they had the billions of dollars of funding, 2) they are backed by the governments, 3)the relentless campaign is backed by violent intimidation.
Any one who thinks that fanatic Islam, which is backed by many Muslim governments, and treasuries is going to be defeated by American soldiers is fooling himself. Only ideological campaign that is well orchestrated, and relentlessly prosecuted over DECADES can change the current status in the Muslim world, including Turkey.
For now, WE DON'T WANT TO LET 60MILLION MUSLIM TURKS IN EUROPE. THE EUROPEANS HAVE THEIR HANDS FULL WITH A FEW MILLION MOSLEMS. It would be a disaster to force the European to accept suicide.
The Justice and Development Party (AKP) won big on economic and corruption issues. They were repeatedly asked to disavow Islamist views which they did. Should they threaten the secular Republic of Turkey the Army will "suggest" to them that it's time for a new government. The old government has always agreed to the suggestion and thanked the Army, sort of.
Now it is true that I have not lived there for more than ten years but I lived there as a civilian living on the economy in Ankara. I stand by my praise of the Turkish people.
Do you have sources that suggest that the Army would not act to prevent an Islamist takeover? One of the conditions of the EU is for the Army to butt out, I don't think that there are many in Turkey who would favor that if the Republic is threatened.
In my simplistic or misinformed way I'd especially like to see sources for your statement that "the Turkish population finally [gave] up their secular policy, and relented to radical Islam." Are they ready to turn their backs on Ataturk, the founder of modern Turkey?
BTW, there's difference between a country of Muslims (Turkey) and a Muslim country.
Actually the evidences are black and white on the front page of ALL American papers, and the headlines of ALL American TV news. It is like the bible said you have eyes but you cannot see, and ears and cannot hear. Psychologist call it SELECTIVE processing. Now that I confused you, here the the proof. During the US invasion campaign of Iraq, we wanted to use our old ally Turkey as a front to place some of our military forces, and their "Muslim" government denied us permission. Their "secular" army did not do anything to pressure the government to help the US. The Muslim government was able to assert its position mainly because the majority of the TURKISH POPULATION HAVE ACCEPTED RADICAL ISLAM.
Very few people in this country know enough about radical Islam, and those who know are not in the decision making positions, unfortunately! For example, I have written a commentary article in my local paper that appeared on Sept 10, 2001 warning of Islamic fanatic potential attack on the US, and naming specifically Osama bin Laden. Now as a civilian, I have no access to intelligence, or any other sources to base my article. I was only using information from Times, Newsweek, and other readily available American press. The reason I can put my finger on it, and not you, or our Administration has to do with LIFE TIME of experience, and gut feelings towards world events and how it is interpreted in the Muslim fanatic world. Our President, VP, and the Cabinet all lack of life time experience with radical Islam. As a matter of fact, they did not even know how evil or angry these fanatic Muslims are until we got attacked on 9/11. Even now after three years, we are still unable to think clearly. If I was in charge, I would make it an unwritten rule to stop all new visas to Muslims, until we can observe an honest initiative by the Muslim nations to reform. Increasing the size of the fifth column in our country is not a smart thing to do, and also not a smart thing to wish upon the Europeans by forcing them to accept the 60 million Muslim Turks.
RE: "you have eyes but you cannot see, and ears and cannot hear."
Doing a little projecting, are we? BTW, everything you said in your email could have been posted for everyone to see. I insist upon communicating in the open, please.
Just by referring to Turkey as a "Muslim country" and a "Muslim democracy" as the President and Sec. of State Powell did, respectively, insulted the Republic of Turkey. Please see the reference I've cited -- I've included yet ANOTHER reference. Hint: where are your references?
I know it's hopeless but I urge you to read Michael Rubin's National Review Online article, "Talking Turkey She’s a democracy -- no qualifiers," August 06, 2004.
Many Turks are worrried that the Bush Administration is too kind to the AKP. Mr. Rubin states that "The AKP has a thinly veiled Islamist agenda."
For example, "In May 2004, [AKP leader and Prime Minister] Erdogan pushed an educational-reform bill that would have eased entry of religious-school graduates into Turkey's university system. The Turkish general staff -- which sees itself as defenders of secularism and the constitution — balked, forcing the AKP to shelve the bill for the year. But, both politicians and military officials believe Erdogan will try again next year"
More: Turkey's religious schools (encouraged by the AKP leadership) are the source of those hijab you spoke about above. To wit, "Turkey's religious schools have become hothouses for radicalism. . .women increasingly not only wear headscarves but also the head-to-toe black hijab characteristic of Saudi Arabia."
The AKP is a possible threat. It does not help that Washington fawns over the "Islamist" party and shuns the majority of Turks who have been friends and allies for years.
Here is the conclusion of Mr. Rubins's article. Perhaps others will read the entire article plus the article posted with this thread and actually get an understanding of the problem.
"Turkey's secularists and nationalists are increasingly bitter with Washington. In the outlying residential districts of Istanbul, far from where tourists venture, posters dot storefronts and apartment blocks. They depict an octopus wearing an Uncle Sam hat, with tentacles labeled AKP. The octopus is strangling Turkey. Washington's close association with the AKP encourages Turkey's secular parties to conflate distrust of the Islamists with the renewed anti-Americanism unleashed by AKP press and publications. At the same time, Washington will win no true friends among the AKP, which seeks to build its relations with Paris, Berlin, Damascus, and Tehran, not on their own merits, but rather on the ruins of Ankara's 'special relationship' with Washington. Bush's advance team did not help during his visit. In Istanbul and Ankara, the State Department invited vocal critics of U.S. policy to meet the president, but neglected to invite some prominent Turks who not only have long supported Washington, but also advocated for Iraq's liberation. The Bush doctrine -- at least in implementation -- and the Clinton doctrine appear little different when it comes to coddling adversaries and slighting friends.
"The U.S.-Turkish relationship is too important to be undermined by the political correctness of our diplomatic corps. Our ambassador to Ankara, Eric Edelman, is excellent, but he is one man among many, and is still focused on repairing the damage wrought by the disastrous tenure of his predecessor. Sometimes tough love is necessary. Perhaps it is time for Bush, Powell, and Rice to say that we respect Turkey, for the same reasons we respect Israel, South Korea, India, and Taiwan -- because it is a democracy. We will oppose any government or politician that seeks to undermine that democracy. We will support the AKP, not because we like it, but only because the Turkish people elected it. But, there is no reason why the State Department should not invite politicians from secular parties to Washington. There is no reason why the White House should not fete our friends, and only politely receive those who bash us in their local media. If Erdogan is really a democrat, then he will understand the need for Washington to hear a plethora of voices." [End excerpt]
As mentinoed in Mr. Rubin's article you can bet the Army is once again watching things very closely.
bttt
" There is no way radical Islam will dominate Turkey unless it can defeat the Army."
This sentence should read:
"Radical islam will dominate Turkey as soon as it infiltrates the officer corps of the Army."
I give it five years.
I suppose I'll be forced back to google to prove it but like I said above: the issues in the election were the miserable economy and corruption. The AKP was repeatedly asked about its feelings toward Islam. They assured voters that they respected the secular government and they were not Islamists.
It appears they could have lied.
I trust the Turkish Army to handle it. It won't be the first time but this time it will not likely be as easy as the times before this -- even with the usual popular support. For anyone reading the article by Mr. Rubin they will know that the number of religious school students is well over a million. Plus there is the usual percentage of the population who are fundamentalists.
I thought of that but I have no way to judge. I know that -- to the best of my knowledge -- there is strict rules about the military and Islam. Not allowed to mix. Period.
If that is not true I'd really appreciate any sources. As much as I liked and admired the Turks years ago I know that things change -- boy! things really did a 180 when Iran went radical.
But! Iran was not a constitutional democratic Republic and did not have a much admired (worshiped?) founder, Ataturk.
It is ironic that we still support Turkey's membership in the EU. It was a matter of Turkish interest that we did so in 1999, not U.S., but I think it was regarded as a reward for their support in the Cold War. Why Bush decided to do so after the Turkish stab in the back in the second Gulf War is very curious. That may be as it was presented, a hasty and since regretted decision of a new government, but I do not see a great deal of open thaw from that government since and none whatever from the leftist intelligentsia and media, nor is there likely to be; that group is the most European of the Turks, meaning the most useless and doctrinaire socialist. They'd fit right in with the French.
What has to happen is that the Turkish government must grow up. It must get along with the Kurds, because they are the future of northern Iraq and will come into possession of the oil facilities however much the Turks howl. Moreover, the U.S. owes them the debt that it used to owe Turkey and no longer does; that of an ally in war.
The Kurds, for their part, must learn to accept their gains and not lust after a Kurdistan that includes Turkish territory. Their own regional government shows distinct signs of a maturity and experience that give me a great deal of hope that they will. They're going to have to live with their neighbors now, and their neighbors with them. At least the Iraqi ones will no longer be gassing them.
I have Turkish friends and a great deal of regard for the quality of their culture and all that it has accomplished. It ran a true world empire long before the U.S. was ever accused of wanting to. Its new government needs to start acting like it.
I cannot argue with what you say. I do feel a little uncomfortable with the thought that Turkey stabbed us in the back. I assume that is related to our troops and their territory.
I followed those events pretty closely because Turkey was catching so much hell on the forum I used at the time. Turkish public opinion was dead set against letting us use their territory. One reason I believe is the public felt that Turkey's economic problems were directly related to the failure of us and Europe to live up to promises from the Gulf War. Another relatively minor factor was their public was aware that the discussions over economic aid being offered by us to them was being portrayed in our press as Turkey "haggling" for all it could get -- the stereotype thing.
There were political problems. The AKP leader Erdogan was still barred from becoming Prime Minister, Gul was acting as the AKP concentrated on making it possible for Erdogan to become Prime Minister. As I recall, Gul was willing to let our troops in but members of the older parties helped defeat the effort owing to pressures from France vis-a-vis membership in the EU. There was also much criticism of how Washington's civilians handled it especially dismissing Turkey's concern over the PKK's worrisome presence in northern Iraq.
I was very disappointed but Turkey did have its own national concerns -- not a very popular opinion for me to express as I found out.
I believe that Turkish businessmen are doing tons of business with the Kurds in Iraq. (Of course, the PKK is another very separate matter.) The quotes form the posted article in my #7 reply paints what could turn out to be a lasting relationship if the Kurds do as you suggested.
I agree. Europe has nothing to gain and much to lose from admitting Turkey.
And here'a a radical concept - we could stand back and let the EU & Turkey work it out. If the EU lets Turkey in, they can kiss their remaining freedoms good-bye. The Turks will swamp the EU, and immigration will allow extremist Muslims in all across Europe.
But if Europe wants to cut their own throat (perhaps literally), so be it.
I thank God for the Atlantic Ocean!
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