Where Goes the U.S.-Turkish Relationship?

"-- there is strict rules about the military and Islam. Not allowed to mix. Period."

There are rules that the government is to remain secular--enforced by the military if necessary. But what happens when the military goes Islamic--who will enforce things then? The fact is, the Turkish government will be as Islamic as the military allows it to be, rules be damned.

If extremists can take over the Paki Intelligence structure, they can move into the military leadership of Turkey--making all the proper promises of course.
But it comes down to the old question--who will watch the watchman.

I agree. Europe has nothing to gain and much to lose from admitting Turkey. HOWEVER, President BUSH WAS LOBBYING TO FORCE EUROPE TO ACCEPT TURKEY!

So why would we want to wish the destruction of Europe by forcing 60 million angry Muslims on them?

We aren't forcing anything on the EU. They do what they want and particularly what their own islamfacists constituencies demand. Turkey stiffed us in Afghanistan. Eu and them deserve each other.

Our president is pressuring Europe to accept Turkey as an equal member! That is what I was talking about for several days.

The Turkish prime minister and Bush already made plans about the oil reserves in the southeast. The prime minister, who doesn't give a damn about his country, is trying to get Turkey into EU in the hopes that under 'human rights' codes, hijab will be allowed everywhere and further on, the southeast of Turkey will be handed over to Kurds, just like they are practically selling the north of Cyprus to the Greek side. Bush probably agreed to give Erdogan a considerable profit for all this.

I hope that my beautiful country doesn't get accepted to EU. Not only will it allow the facist islamists to destroy the values of secularism, republic, and everything else that is civil, with the blink of an eye, it will also bring strict restrictions to the army, which will allow all those hungry European countries, who had their eyes on our land for hundreds of years, take over our land and make up some human rights lie to justify it all.

Of course, I feel sorry for them because they will be flooded by the dirt of Turkey, at the same time. The only people who will leave Turkey to go work and live in Europe will be the ones that are unemployed in Turkey and the ones that want to spread Islam. It's a TERRIBLE thing for both Turkey and Europe. I really hope Chirac and all the rest who don't want us in have it their way. The day we get into EU, all hell will break loose.

It is like a breath of fresh air to read your comments about your own country, Turkey. If I have to wager, I would have to say that you are one of the minority Christian Turks? If you are a Muslim Turk, that is even more astounding! You would be the only Muslim that speaks the truth out of the 200 million Muslims in the Middle East. I appreciate you give me a feed back on your background, and I look forward to discuss that subject with you in more details.

Thanks

Personally, I don't have a religion. I have my own beliefs about God and so on. I accept and welcome any religion / religious people as long as their belief makes them a better person. To answer your question though, there are tons of people like me in Turkey who feel the same way, and most will call themselves Muslim because we have been that way for a while. Just like with any religion, I guess you can believe in the core values and morals of it but anything that falls out of your perception of life, you won't practice. So for instance, these people that i know about don't pray 5 times a day, but may visit a mosque once their life, or won't fast but wish one another happy holidays. So, I hope that answers your question.

Of course this is true for major cities and well-developed places in Turkey. If you go to a small village, they'll be a lot more conservative and religious there. On that note, however, the Anatolian culture is very different than Arabic. We're a mix of Oriental, European, Asian, and Middle Eastern cultures so a Muslim from Turkey is usually quite different from a Muslim from anywhere else, because our traditions include a mix of all these different cultures. Like I can relate so incredibly well to my Coratian friend, and at the same time, I can relate to a Lebanese friend of mine AND a Chinese friend, as well.

Oh, and something interesting. I read somewhere that in the Koran there are passages about how Turks are Muslims' enemies and stuff. At that time we weren't even related to the Islamic world and nobody really explains how and why we switched from our own religion (which worshipped the sky and the sun gods) to one that sees us as the enemy. I would like to know if you (or anyone on the board) have any insight on this.

And thanks for the response! I really enjoy hearing different opinions and reading comments from people who know what they're talking about.

Oh, also
You said Turkey WAS a secular country.
It still IS and I think I'd stab myself in the heart if that ever changed. It's still agains the law to enter any government building, school or university with a headscarf, or any other religious symbol, for that matter. But there are those who break the law. So I guess i'ts kind of true to say that unfortunately, with the new government, and their men in some key positions in the country (like deans in universities and even most likely spies in the army), the authority to punish these people is lacking. So we are still secular but there has never been a threat this big against it since it was founded.

Now I have to admit that I was under the impression that Muslims (at least 99.9% of them) are either fanatic or sympathize with the fanatics. But that due my extensive interaction with Arab Muslims. For some reason Islam came out of Arabia, and concurred by FORCE the North African states, and ME, and into Asia, and Europe. The Arab Muslims in Egypt were very afraid of allowing plurality. They are like thieves who stole something, and so worried that if he did not stay on the offensive, they may lose their loot. To that end, they oppressed the native Egyptians, the Copts, and periodically through some underground terrorist organization called the Muslim Brotherhood, which is the Genesis of all Islamic terror, they go out and burn some churches or kill some priest.

Having observed that barbaric attitude from religious leaders, and main stream educated Muslim followers, I arrived at the conclusion that it is IMPOSSIBLE to talk sense or objectivity to ANY Muslim. Now, I stand corrected. But I must add, since you are a nonpracticing Muslim, you feel free to criticize Muslims, and Islam. I am a nonpracticing Catholic, and also I feel free to criticize Catholicism, and Christianity. Practicing Christians, however, can carry discussions with me without resorting to death threats. On the other hand, practicing Muslims CANNOT allow you or me to criticize their religion without death threats.

I am happy that there are good number of Muslim Turks who are open minded, and who are not fanatic about all the nonsense of Islam. You know the majority of Europeans have giving up on Christianity all together. It would be great if religious leaders from the Christian side, the Jewish side, and the Muslim side all get together in front of the TV camera, and tell their followers: WE WANT TO LET YOU IN ON A BIG SECRET, THIS WHOLE RELIGION THING IS MAN MADE! Religions where invented thousands of years ago to establish a code of ethics to an otherwise barbaric human beings. Like any sport team, or political parties, the followers became fanatics, and hated the opposing teams!! Once the general public realized that the whole thing is MAN MADE, then the US, Israel, the Muslim nations will have less tension, which is typically created by religion zealots.

Again, if you take a picture of downtown Istanbul 30 years ago, and today, you will realize a significant increase in women wearing scarfs. That says it all to me; AN INCREASE IN FANATIC MUSLIMS!

You are like a piece of wood in an angry ocean of hate, YOU WILL NEVER going to be able to sustain secularism. The imported hate from Iran, and the other low life Arab countries will swallow any resistance by the thinking moderate tolerant Turks.