Posted on 12/06/2004 12:44:58 PM PST by Lindykim
"Is it morally and theologically acceptable to hope anyone goes to hell? ... One...need not be a conservative Christian to believe in some form of hell for the evil. All one need be is a rational believer in a just God. For if there is a just God, it is inconceivable that those who do evil and those who do good have identical fates. A just God must care about justice, and since there is little justice in this world, there has to be in the next. And belief in the next world is also not confined to Christianity. As the Encyclopedia Judaica ... (edited largely by non-religious Jews) notes in the first sentence under the heading 'Afterlife,' 'Judaism has always believed in an afterlife.' ... Much of humanity has been adversely affected by modern-day terror. The lives of millions -- virtually all Palestinians and Israelis, for example -- have been terribly affected by Arafat. And there are hundreds of thousands of people whose lives have been destroyed or shattered by him. At the same time, other than a few sycophants enriched by some of the billions of dollars he embezzled from the Palestinians, no one has had a better life because Yasser Arafat lived. ... Yasser Arafat single-handedly made nihilistic acts of cruelty routine, even respectable. ... Thanks to him, the Palestinian name is identified among people of goodwill with barbarity just as the German name came to be associated with barbarity as a result of Hitler. ... Just as any decent human being would want good people to be rewarded in whatever existence there is after this life, they would want the cruelest of people to be punished. So, of course, I hope Yasser Arafat is in hell. ... If you think that is hard-hearted, consider the alternative, that one of the most corrupt and cruel human beings of the past half-century is resting in peace. Whoever isn't bothered by that is the one with the hard heart." --Dennis Prager
God knew their hearts. He knows the end from the beginning and I trust Him to make the right decision.
According to Emily Post, it is perfectly acceptable to wish for democrats, socialists, communists, PETA members and the Berkeley faculty to be sent to the Netherworld on a non-stop with no meal or in-flight movie.
Dear DarthVader,
I'm not really trying to persuade you to believe in the doctrine of Purgatory. I'm only trying to make a little more clear just what the doctrine is and means, and trying to make clear that belief in it is required of Catholics.
As for the good thief, there is no conflict between the doctrine of Purgatory and his being with Jesus "today in Paradise."
First, we don't really know just how perfect or imperfect, how attached to sin or not, the good thief's soul was. In that the good thief quite literally shared in the Cross of Christ, one might think that he underwent some significant amount of purging, purification, perfecting, before he even died.
Second, Jesus promised him that he would be with Jesus "this day," not instantly at death. Thus, that the good thief may have experience Purgatory isn't precluded by Jesus' promise.
Third, it may not be quite precise to think of Purgatory as a place separate from Heaven. Catholic doctrine requires belief in a PROCESS of perfection, not a PLACE of perfection. As well, the concept of time is not doctrinally required in the teaching of Purgatory. One doesn't go to Purgatory for a specific period of "time," although it is speculated by the Church that souls undergoing Purgatory may experience something like time.
Thus, for all we know, the good thief may have been in the presence of God as he experienced Purgatory. What we do know, dogmatically, is that no one comes to the completion of the Beatific Vision without being perfected.
"There are many teachings in the Catholic church that do not meet the Biblical smell test and that I do not agree with nor accept."
If the Church teaches something infallibly, a Catholic must believe it. The doctrine of the Church is that there are no conflicts between infallible teaching and Scripture.
"The Scriptures which are the inspired Word of God is the ONLY thing we have to base things on."
You are certainly entitled to believe that, but that isn't actually Catholic (or Orthodox) belief. The Church teaches that Sacred Tradition and Scripture are in perfect harmony, when rightly understood, and that one must accept both.
"Any other teaching if it is not based upon Scripture is an assumption."
Again, you may choose to believe this if you wish, but this is more of a Protestant view of Christian faith than a Catholic one.
"A Christian no matter what sect they are in is to base their life on the truth of God's Word not dogma."
Well, that's a false dichotomy. It is dogma that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. It is dogma that Jesus is True God and True Man. It is dogma that Jesus was crucified, died, was buried, and on the third day, rose again. These are all dogmas of the Catholic Church. Most Christians would say that one must base one's faith and one's life on them.
And here's a dogma most Christians accept: that of the Trinity: One God, three divine Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each One God, each One a Person of Himself, yet all One God, not three. Although, as a Catholic, I believe (and am obligated to believe) that there is nothing contradictory between Scripture and the doctrine of the Trinity, nonetheless, the doctrine of the Trinity is not spelled out in the Bible.
Over the centuries, there have been a multiplicity of doctrinal interpretations of the nature of God made by various Christians, and each has used Scriptures to support his views. Some have denied the absolute Divinity of Jesus. Some have attributed Divinity to Him, but said He is of a different substance of the Father. Some have interpreted a modalist Trinity, where instead of three unique Persons, there is one God Who operates in three different modes.
Yet, orthodox Christians (whether Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant) reject all of these as being heterodox, false. But you will be hard-put to absolutely rule out these other views of the nature of God strictly through the Bible, without reference to the writings of the Fathers and the Councils of the Church.
sitetest
Great answer, little jeremiah. Thanks.
God will sort that out. My pastor tells us continually that nobody will be in Heaven who shouldn't be there and nobody will be in hell that shouldn't be there. There are many mysteries in the Bible to which only God knows the answer. He knows their hearts, we don't.
Do you read Scripture to mean that the only way to avoid Hell is to accept Jesus while on Earth?
If so, won't the vast majority of the Khmer victims go to Hell?
Are they happy in Heaven knowing their child is suffering eternally in Hell?
Unfortunately, not everyone wants to. He won't force it on anyone.
"It is dogma that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. It is dogma that Jesus is True God and True Man. It is dogma that Jesus was crucified, died, was buried, and on the third day, rose again. These are all dogmas of the Catholic Church. Most Christians would say that one must base one's faith and one's life on them."
These are not dogmas but authenicated facts through Scripture and historical documented facts.
"The Church teaches that Sacred Tradition and Scripture are in perfect harmony, when rightly understood, and that one must accept both."
God's Word teaches that if doctrines of the Church conflict with the teachings of Christ and God's word you are to reject the teaching of the Church.
You totally misunderstand the concept of God's grace. Remember you are a Christian first before you are any denomination. Paul said in Ephesians to be swayed around by doctrines was to be immature in your faith.
Ephesians 4: 11-16
"11The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13until all of us come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ. 14We must no longer be children, tossed to and fro and blown about by every wind of doctrine, by people’s trickery, by their craftiness in deceitful scheming. 15But speaking the truth in love, we must grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every ligament with which it is equipped, as each part is working properly, promotes the body’s growth in building itself up in love."
To get mired in doctrinal controversy only undermines the Holy Spirit's primary work of unifying the Body of Christ and allowing it to reach its full potential.He teaches Christians to be sober and mature minded.
Attached here is Romans Chapter 5 which deals with the concept of grace. Remember doctrines that add to or take away from the truth of God's Word are not truth at all.
Romans 5:
Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,a 2through whom we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand; and we boast in our hope of sharing the glory of God. 3And not only that, but we also boast in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,d 4and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us.
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7Indeed, rarely will anyone die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person someone might actually dare to die. 8But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us. 9Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God.e 10For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life. 11But more than that, we even boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. 12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned— 13sin was indeed in the world before the law, but sin is not reckoned when there is no law. 14Yet death exercised dominion from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who was to come. 15But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died through the one man’s trespass, much more surely have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abounded for the many. 16And the free gift is not like the effect of the one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. 17If, because of the one man’s trespass, death exercised dominion through that one, much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness exercise dominion in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. 19For just as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20But law came in, with the result that the trespass multiplied; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, just as sin exercised dominion in death, so grace might also exercise dominion through justification leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Dear DarthVader,
"These are not dogmas but authenicated facts through Scripture and historical documented facts."
They most certainly are dogmas. They are dogmas that are supported by Scripture, but they are nonetheless dogmas. In fact, that they are dogmas in part because they are so readily accessible through Scripture.
Yet, not everyone who claims to be a Christian believes in all of these dogmas.
"God's Word teaches that if doctrines of the Church conflict with the teachings of Christ and God's word you are to reject the teaching of the Church."
I don't remember that in my Bible. In my Bible, the Church is called the pillar and foundation of truth. I'm unclear just how the pillar and foundation of truth could be in conflict with the truth.
"You totally misunderstand the concept of God's grace. Remember you are a Christian first before you are any denomination. Paul said in Ephesians to be swayed around by doctrines was to be immature in your faith."
Well, actually, no, not quite. In becoming a Christian at Baptism, I also became, at the same moment, a member of the Body of Christ, the Church. I was not a Christian before I was a member of the Church.
For Catholics, we believe that the Body of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is not a "denomination," it is the Body of Christ. We recognize that there are those who are outside the visible Church who are nonetheless joined to the Body of Christ, but even here, we recognize that they enjoy some partial membership with the Catholic Church.
Thus, there is no difference between being a Christian and being a member of the Catholic Church, even if imperfectly.
"To get mired in doctrinal controversy only undermines the Holy Spirit's primary work of unifying the Body of Christ and allowing it to reach its full potential.He teaches Christians to be sober and mature minded."
Are you referring to the question of the nature of God vis-a-vis the doctrine of the Trinity? Do you think that it is "getting mired in doctrinal controversy" to believe that the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity is true, and that things like Arianism or modalism are untrue, and worse, dangerous heresies to be avoided?
"Attached here is Romans Chapter 5 which deals with the concept of grace. Remember doctrines that add to or take away from the truth of God's Word are not truth at all."
Thanks. However, Catholic teaching is that no Catholic dogma or doctrine adds to or takes way from the truth of God's Word. It isn't permitted for Catholics to believe that. To believe that is to embrace some of the fundamental precepts of Protestantism as true.
I understand if you disagree. I'm not asking for your agreement, and I'm not really even trying to persuade you to agree. But you said that you're a Catholic. I'm only trying to point out that to the degree that you believe these things, you are believing things that vitiate Catholicism.
sitetest
The Bible actually talks about this :
Romans 2:12-15
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
This indicates that there may be some people who never heard or knew the truth, yet they did what's right ("do by nature the things required by the law"). Consider also this passage:
Matthew 25:31-46 excerpts
When the Son of Man comes in his glory...He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink... Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?...
The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
Note -- the righteous (or at least some of them), are SURPRISED: "When did we see YOU!?!?!?" Yet any Christian in such a situation would surely recognize it from the gospel story. So, as I see it, the ones who are surprised can only be those who never heard (BC or AD), yet did the best they knew. Read on...
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat.. They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
Again, these people are suprised. They expected to enter heaven, they thought they served Jesus (ie, they were all Christians), yet they are told they did not. Chilling.
It's not the pillar that's in conflict with the truth. It's the graffiti on the pillar. Occupying a seat of authority is not the same as actually having that authority. We try to avoid this but, sometimes it happens.
I am a Christian first and a Catholic second. Being a member of the Roman Catholic Church does not automatically make you a Christian as my own personal testimony will authenticate and validate. Knowing Jesus Christ as your personal savior does and makes you a member of the mystical catholic or "Universal" body of Christ which cuts across denominations and the many various ehtnicities that are in the world
I prayed for you and the Holy Spirit gave me this to share with you:(Pay particular attention to Verses 1-4)
Romans 10:
1Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved.a 2I can testify that they have a zeal for God, but it is not enlightened. 3For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they have not submitted to God’s righteousness. 4For Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. 5Moses writes concerning the righteousness that comes from the law, that ‘the person who does these things will live by them.’ 6But the righteousness that comes from faith says, ‘Do not say in your heart, “Who will ascend into heaven?”’ (that is, to bring Christ down) 7‘or “Who will descend into the abyss?”’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? ‘The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart’ (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.b 10For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. 11The scripture says, ‘No one who believes in him will be put to shame.’
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and is generous to all who call on him. 13For, ‘Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.’ 14But how are they to call on one in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in one of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim him? 15And how are they to proclaim him unless they are sent? As it is written, ‘How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!’ 16But not all have obeyed the good news; for Isaiah says, ‘Lord, who has believed our message?’c 17So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.d 18But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have; for ‘Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.’ 19Again I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, ‘I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.’ 20Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, ‘I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.’ 21But of Israel he says, ‘All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.’
You've already asked this, and had it answered. Heaven is a state of bliss. There are no tears, no regrets, no unhappy things.
If it was God's Will for a child to go unredeemed, by the time we get to Heaven we will be in perfect agreement with God's Will. We will nto wish things were otherwise. We will see God as He Is, and all will be Perfection.
SD
You're not a Catholic at all, if this is what you believe. Embrace your inner protestantism.
SD
I do embrace it and God's love, blessing and power comes to my life easily and powerfully. You could call me a CINO (Catholic in Name Only).
It's really good to read posts like yours. :-)
Thank you! And it is great to meet people of a like mind like yourself. :-)
Again, these people are suprised. They expected to enter heaven, they thought they served Jesus (ie, they were all Christians), yet they are told they did not. Chilling.
They are the "Church" wise pew warmers.
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