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To: DarthVader

Dear DarthVader,

I'm not really trying to persuade you to believe in the doctrine of Purgatory. I'm only trying to make a little more clear just what the doctrine is and means, and trying to make clear that belief in it is required of Catholics.

As for the good thief, there is no conflict between the doctrine of Purgatory and his being with Jesus "today in Paradise."

First, we don't really know just how perfect or imperfect, how attached to sin or not, the good thief's soul was. In that the good thief quite literally shared in the Cross of Christ, one might think that he underwent some significant amount of purging, purification, perfecting, before he even died.

Second, Jesus promised him that he would be with Jesus "this day," not instantly at death. Thus, that the good thief may have experience Purgatory isn't precluded by Jesus' promise.

Third, it may not be quite precise to think of Purgatory as a place separate from Heaven. Catholic doctrine requires belief in a PROCESS of perfection, not a PLACE of perfection. As well, the concept of time is not doctrinally required in the teaching of Purgatory. One doesn't go to Purgatory for a specific period of "time," although it is speculated by the Church that souls undergoing Purgatory may experience something like time.

Thus, for all we know, the good thief may have been in the presence of God as he experienced Purgatory. What we do know, dogmatically, is that no one comes to the completion of the Beatific Vision without being perfected.

"There are many teachings in the Catholic church that do not meet the Biblical smell test and that I do not agree with nor accept."

If the Church teaches something infallibly, a Catholic must believe it. The doctrine of the Church is that there are no conflicts between infallible teaching and Scripture.

"The Scriptures which are the inspired Word of God is the ONLY thing we have to base things on."

You are certainly entitled to believe that, but that isn't actually Catholic (or Orthodox) belief. The Church teaches that Sacred Tradition and Scripture are in perfect harmony, when rightly understood, and that one must accept both.

"Any other teaching if it is not based upon Scripture is an assumption."

Again, you may choose to believe this if you wish, but this is more of a Protestant view of Christian faith than a Catholic one.

"A Christian no matter what sect they are in is to base their life on the truth of God's Word not dogma."

Well, that's a false dichotomy. It is dogma that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. It is dogma that Jesus is True God and True Man. It is dogma that Jesus was crucified, died, was buried, and on the third day, rose again. These are all dogmas of the Catholic Church. Most Christians would say that one must base one's faith and one's life on them.

And here's a dogma most Christians accept: that of the Trinity: One God, three divine Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each One God, each One a Person of Himself, yet all One God, not three. Although, as a Catholic, I believe (and am obligated to believe) that there is nothing contradictory between Scripture and the doctrine of the Trinity, nonetheless, the doctrine of the Trinity is not spelled out in the Bible.

Over the centuries, there have been a multiplicity of doctrinal interpretations of the nature of God made by various Christians, and each has used Scriptures to support his views. Some have denied the absolute Divinity of Jesus. Some have attributed Divinity to Him, but said He is of a different substance of the Father. Some have interpreted a modalist Trinity, where instead of three unique Persons, there is one God Who operates in three different modes.

Yet, orthodox Christians (whether Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant) reject all of these as being heterodox, false. But you will be hard-put to absolutely rule out these other views of the nature of God strictly through the Bible, without reference to the writings of the Fathers and the Councils of the Church.


sitetest


344 posted on 12/08/2004 8:00:06 AM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest

"It is dogma that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. It is dogma that Jesus is True God and True Man. It is dogma that Jesus was crucified, died, was buried, and on the third day, rose again. These are all dogmas of the Catholic Church. Most Christians would say that one must base one's faith and one's life on them."

These are not dogmas but authenicated facts through Scripture and historical documented facts.

"The Church teaches that Sacred Tradition and Scripture are in perfect harmony, when rightly understood, and that one must accept both."

God's Word teaches that if doctrines of the Church conflict with the teachings of Christ and God's word you are to reject the teaching of the Church.



You totally misunderstand the concept of God's grace. Remember you are a Christian first before you are any denomination. Paul said in Ephesians to be swayed around by doctrines was to be immature in your faith.

Ephesians 4: 11-16

"11The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13until all of us come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ. 14We must no longer be children, tossed to and fro and blown about by every wind of doctrine, by people’s trickery, by their craftiness in deceitful scheming. 15But speaking the truth in love, we must grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every ligament with which it is equipped, as each part is working properly, promotes the body’s growth in building itself up in love."

To get mired in doctrinal controversy only undermines the Holy Spirit's primary work of unifying the Body of Christ and allowing it to reach its full potential.He teaches Christians to be sober and mature minded.

Attached here is Romans Chapter 5 which deals with the concept of grace. Remember doctrines that add to or take away from the truth of God's Word are not truth at all.

Romans 5:

Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,a 2through whom we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand; and we boast in our hope of sharing the glory of God. 3And not only that, but we also boast in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,d 4and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us.
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7Indeed, rarely will anyone die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person someone might actually dare to die. 8But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us. 9Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God.e 10For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life. 11But more than that, we even boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. 12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned— 13sin was indeed in the world before the law, but sin is not reckoned when there is no law. 14Yet death exercised dominion from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who was to come. 15But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died through the one man’s trespass, much more surely have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abounded for the many. 16And the free gift is not like the effect of the one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. 17If, because of the one man’s trespass, death exercised dominion through that one, much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness exercise dominion in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. 19For just as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20But law came in, with the result that the trespass multiplied; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, just as sin exercised dominion in death, so grace might also exercise dominion through justification leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


350 posted on 12/08/2004 8:50:02 AM PST by DarthVader
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