Iraqi Forces: "Just Pitiful" AOL News Headline

AOL News ^ | 11-30-04 | Richard Oppel and James Glanz

[SunkenCiv]

earlier topic:

U.S. Officials Say Iraq's Forces Founder Under Rebel Assaults
The New York Times ^ | November 30, 2004
RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr. and JAMES GLANZ
Posted on 11/30/2004 7:26:50 AM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1291100/posts

[not2worry]

Sorry, but I wasn't addressing Bosnia. I was speaking to the topic of Iraq. As far as I am concerned Bosnia was a Bill Clinton decoy that cost us too many American lives and I agree with you, continues to do so.

My point was that we can establish an effective Military Base at the Baghdad Airport and not depend on other ME Countries for a permission slip.

IMHO, the world has changed since Bill Clinton left office and we have a Commander in Chief that thinks beyond whose going to be crawling around the Oval Office every morning.

[FreedomPoster]

The real root of the ineffectiveness of Arab forces in the ME is pretty well covered, as a by-product of the main themes, in Victor Davis Hanson's Carnage and Culture.

[Polybius]

To: not2worry

So, the Iraqi forces don't want to defend themselves and your response is that we should stay in that Bosinia writ large where are men and women and being picked off one by one? What do you hope to accomplish, other than a continued slow bleed?

Some Iraqi units have done badly and some Iraqi units have done very well.

At the end of the Battle of Bull Run, the Union forces did not want to stand their ground and defend themselves and Lincoln's response was that the Union should stay the course.

At the end of the Battle of Chancellorsville, the Union XIth Corps did not want to stand their ground and defend themselves and Lincoln's response was that the Union should stay the course.

What did Lincoln hope to accomplish, other than a continued slow bleed?

The greatest allies that the Jihadis have are the American Liberal media and their "cut and run" cheerleaders who paint everything in the worst possible light.

[LS]

Excellent suggestion. This was also the tactic used by the British in India: Hindu units in Moslem areas, Moslems in Hindu, both in Sikh.

[A Ruckus of Dogs]

As much as we want to be out of that place, probably not going to happen for 10 years.. They have got to learn they have to stand up and defend themselves.

We should make it clear that we are not sticking around for a decade and if they don't get their act together, they will be overrun by Iran.

[chilepepper]

what the article misses entirely is that it has always been the case that an army is formed in battle.

those that can get the job done survive and build the core of a real fighting force -- fools, cowards or the french die, surrender or slink away...

[monday]

"Secondly, having a presence in a Middle Eastern country for the long haul is a brilliant idea IMHO."

lol.... well you have your wish. I don't think that Rumsfield and the rest planned to occupy Iraq permanently going in, but they have little choice now.

The US has it's very own Gaza Strip, only many times as large. It should be an excellent breeding ground for suicide bombers and other Islamic nut cases for years and years to come.

[GraniteStateConservative]

We declare people and situations hopeless all the time. A Jeffersonian democracy in Iraq isn't sacred in that respect. If the January elections are a flop and the Iraqi armed forces show no signs of being able to get their sh!t together, then we'd have to call the venture in Iraq hopeless, too, and move on. We'll see what happens next year. Their future is in their hands, not ours.

[monday]

"Just because we borrow an ancient tactic doesn't mean that we are going to adopt Saddam's methods wholesale."

We should, but we won't. He understood the only way to govern Iraqi's. There will be continued chaos until his methods are adopted. Since his methods cannot be adopted, there will be continued chaos. Do you doubt this?

[GraniteStateConservative]

There is no way we will be doing exactly what we are doing in Iraq now when 2014 rolls around-- not even for another year. They have to make progress in 2005. Otherwise, we will cut bait. I don't know what that will look like exactly, but we will. Our presence by no later than 2006 will be down to 35-40K troops.

[Terpfen]

"The idea of pulling all our Troops out of Iraq is not logical. We need them there more than we do in Germany, South Korea or Ft. Riley."

The idea was never to completely pull out of Iraq. Iraq is the new central base for American troops in the region. We've already moved our troops out of Saudi and into Iraq. Eventually, most of those troops will leave, but we'll have bases and a presence.

[semaj]

"For those brave enough to come to work, "right now, all they're doing is looking out the window and making sure the bad guys aren't coming to get them," said an American military official in Mosul, who did not want his name to be used."

This little comment says alot about what's wrong.

[semaj]

Instead of holing up in the police station waiting to be massacred, with some seasoned leadership, commission these guys to roam the cities until they meet up with resistance, then take it out. These insurgents are more than likely just as un-trained as the Iraqi police in force on force battlefield tactics, so the outcome should be favorable.

[Tallguy]

We have no choice but to "doubt it". Until the Iraqis prove, by force of arms, that we are wrong we will continue down the road of building an independent Iraq with a representative government. We can always settle for something less, but there's no point in admitting defeat at this early stage.

[monday]

"We have no choice but to "doubt it". "

I guess the failures of Britain in Iraq don't count, or the failure of any other Arab country to establish western style democracy? What about the failure of Israel to pacify the Palestinians?

Were there no previous experiences in this part of the world that could have for warned that Muslims in general and Arab Muslims in particular are difficult to govern?

The fact that when they are not fighting westerners, they are fighting each other, offered no clues? What about their culture? The fact they they practice the same medieval customs which require that every female must be some mans absolute property, either as child, wife, or concubine, offered no clue that democracy might be a hard sell in Iraq? They still practice slavery, I mean come on. How hard is it to predict the outcome?

[F16Fighter]

"I hate AOL News...they always put the worst first."

AOL "News" has always been anti-America.

They are despicable.

[snopercod]

Saved to disc. Thanks.

[Tallguy]

Are you suggesting that Iraqi/Arab culture is somehow stonger due to their primitive ways and ruthlessness? Funny thing about wars, you never know in advance how they will turn out. Goals & objectives change. It may well be that the US has to scale back it's objective in Iraq -- but we ain't there yet.

[Blowtorch]

Let's see, how long were the Brits there, 40 years before they decided to go home?

I have great admiration for President Bush however I am not nearly as optimistic about "changing the political dynamics in the Middle East through free elections."

I share your feelings. Unless the people of Iraq are willing to fight for their own freedom, we are wasting our time and precious lives are being lost for a pipe dream. Only time will tell, but we cannot "will" Iraqis to stand up and be counted.