Posted on 11/24/2004 8:39:57 AM PST by b2stealth
Maidan receives more and more confirmation about presence of Russian troops in Ukraine.
Yesterday at night between 1:00 and 4:00 four airplanes with Russian military troops (approx. 400-450 persons) landed in Ivano-Frankivsk. They were dressed into uniform of Ukrainian troops and were sent to Kyyiv by buses. At the moment of planes arrival, the airport was surrounded by military forces.
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Ukrainian Marine Forces with Yushchenko First Commander-in-Chief of Marine Forces of Ukraine Kozhyn called troops to acknowledge Yushchenko as Supreme Commander-in-Chief. >> [24-11-2004 17:28]
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[24-11-2004 17:26] Hot news from Yanukovych headquarters. Once the Central Elections Commetee announces Yanukovych as a President - gangs, masked as Yushchenko supporters will start provocations on Maidan(Independance Square). >>
(Excerpt) Read more at maidanua.org ...
Here's some Ukrainain troops at the Kyiv train station. There may actually be some ethnic Russians there!
Of course, the photo is from last December. Translation: even a photo wouldn't prove anything.
A Ukrainian tank. Don't know if it runs or not.
But you knew what I meant in the post. I know you did. Hysterics on FR are a sad thing to witness. Last night a lot of people really bought into the idea that Putin was sending tanks and militia to take over Ukraine. I was laughing.
I think you were the only one who actually stopped and wondered it it was true.
Happy Thanksgiving! Yum. Turkey. Hope you don't get fat! :-)
Besides I thought you were moving to Ikcheria with your friends.
I don't know what's going on over there, and I'm coming to the conclusion that Washington and Moscow may be out of the loop as well.
Open intervention would be a war of aggression, a war which will begin in Ukraine and ends up God knows where. There would be support if it came to that.
In brief - western Ukraine leans West and votes for Yushchenko, south/eastern Ukraine leans toward Russia and votes for Yanukovych. The vote is close enough to be questioned (quite likely both sides cheated a little in the regions they are strong).
Western leaders cheer for the pro-Western candidate and claim him to be the legitimate winner. Russians cheer for their guy and claim that elections were fair.
Since Kiev the capital is 75% for Yushchenko it is easy to stage "peaceful" mass demonstrations in order to remove the government with the bare hands. Since most of Ukrainians and Russians are similar and speak common language (Russian) it was easy to provide some elite Russian units to protect pro-Yanukovych government in the pro-Yushchenko to thwart "democratic" coup.
Now the game continues through the negotiations in which the cleverer will deceive the dumber (or weaker).
Are there any 'good guys'?
I am not sure.
I never believed communism was wiped out when the wall fell. Just quietly waiting, pushed underground, going by a different name... it seems your post would confirm my suspicions about the true nature of the "New" Russia vs. the USSR.
I believe that in rural areas there is hunting, so there must be firearms. Some of the Blue states have more restrictive gun laws than the old Soviet Union.
For the most part, I agree with Richard W we do need to stay out of this. However, we should register our disapproval and let things work themselves out. What we fail to recognize is that years ago when the Iron Curtain came down George Bush the elder promised the Soviets that we would not expand NATO past Germany. With that being said, then came x42 who not only expanded Nato past Germany but tragically attacked the Serbs. Then in comes Dubya who expands Nato still further and or closer to the Russian border. My question is, What is wrong with this picture? Can you honestly blame putin for this? Perhaps a way out would be for us to invite the Russians into NATO and turn Nato's focus eastward.
the russians have supported iraq, iran, n korea and china. i dont see a willingness to cooperate with the us or nato at all.
i'll agree with you that kosovo was a mistake in many instances. i have friends in the us government that would say it was necesary, so i've got both sides, but to me it was more about protecting clinton than fighting for anybody.
so i could easily assume that there was fallout that we are not aware of.
however we supposedly went in for humanitarian reasons, that russia helped out with (i'm thinking of the conflict at the airport to support that thought).
that being said, russia continued to support iraq through the oil for food program up til the end of the program. to me it seems like they are trying to build another empire as opposed to be 'friends' with the US. what are your thoughts?
There is credible testimony that the collapse of the Soviet Union was pre-planned by Kremlin strategists, that it has been carefully managed by the secret police and other hidden structures of the former Soviet state. There are those who argue that liberalization in the former Soviet Union is an ongoing totalitarian experiment in controlled democracy. The purpose of this experiment has partly to do with the reinvigoration of the totalitarian regime. By replacing neo-Stalinism with a more subtle system based on perceptions management, the Kremlin can better monitor those elements of Russian society which oppose them. Another purpose of this experiment in controlled liberalization is to weaken the West by taking away its image of the enemy. Without an obvious threat from Russia, America would be encouraged to disarm.
http://www.antipas.org/news/russia/russia_problem.html
I agree with you. I've ALWAYS lamented the "downsizing" or "rift-reduction in forces" of the U.S. military after the "Cold War"...thought it was stupid, stupid, stupid!
Of course, being only a "lowly" lieutenant at the time, who was going to listen to me?
One reason, (well, the ONLY reason) I left the Active military in 1994, was (you guessed it) Bill Clinton. I saw a once proud, well armed, well trained Army "gutted". I saw our Army go from almost one million active duty troops to 460,00! OVER HALF! I saw facilities budgets rendered to almost 'nil...barracks with leaking roofs, and bad plumbing, which went months before repairs...remember, TRAINING comes first.
I saw services like gas stations close, because they didn't have the money to keep the pumps on. I saw paved parking lots that started having grass grow between the CRACKS in them because there was no money to FILL the cracks. Buildings that had peeling/flaking paint, that couldn't be painted...NO MONEY!
I saw armored units(tanks) that had to conduct tactical training on GOLF CARTS the last quarter of the fiscal year because we didn't (yeah, MY tank company was forced to do that!) have the $$$'s to PUT FUEL in our tanks(armored vehicles)! Yeah, and the f*#@ing press never said much about this! Screw them.
So-o-o, I got out, and after 5 years of being in the IRR, I went back into the Reserve.
Under the Bush administration it IS getting better, but it could be ALOT better.
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