4 airplanes with Russian troops landed in Ivano-Frankivsk, UKRAINE

Maidan ^

[b2stealth]

Maidan receives more and more confirmation about presence of Russian troops in Ukraine.

“Yesterday at night between 1:00 and 4:00 four airplanes with Russian military troops (approx. 400-450 persons) landed in Ivano-Frankivsk. They were dressed into uniform of Ukrainian troops and were sent to Kyyiv by buses. At the moment of planes arrival, the airport was surrounded by military forces.”

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Ukrainian Marine Forces with Yushchenko First Commander-in-Chief of Marine Forces of Ukraine Kozhyn called troops to acknowledge Yushchenko as Supreme Commander-in-Chief. >> [24-11-2004 17:28]

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[24-11-2004 17:26] Hot news from Yanukovych headquarters. Once the Central Elections Commetee announces Yanukovych as a President - gangs, masked as Yushchenko supporters will start provocations on Maidan(Independance Square). >>

[struwwelpeter]

Here's some Ukrainain troops at the Kyiv train station. There may actually be some ethnic Russians there!

Of course, the photo is from last December. Translation: even a photo wouldn't prove anything.

[struwwelpeter]

A Ukrainian tank. Don't know if it runs or not.

[MarMema]

But you knew what I meant in the post. I know you did. Hysterics on FR are a sad thing to witness. Last night a lot of people really bought into the idea that Putin was sending tanks and militia to take over Ukraine. I was laughing.
I think you were the only one who actually stopped and wondered it it was true.

[MarMema]

Happy Thanksgiving! Yum. Turkey. Hope you don't get fat! :-)

[MarMema]

Besides I thought you were moving to Ikcheria with your friends.

[struwwelpeter]

I don't know what's going on over there, and I'm coming to the conclusion that Washington and Moscow may be out of the loop as well.

[Atlantic Friend]

Open intervention would be a war of aggression, a war which will begin in Ukraine and ends up God knows where. There would be support if it came to that.

[A. Pole]

What exactly is going on in the Ukraine?

In brief - western Ukraine leans West and votes for Yushchenko, south/eastern Ukraine leans toward Russia and votes for Yanukovych. The vote is close enough to be questioned (quite likely both sides cheated a little in the regions they are strong).

Western leaders cheer for the pro-Western candidate and claim him to be the legitimate winner. Russians cheer for their guy and claim that elections were fair.

Since Kiev the capital is 75% for Yushchenko it is easy to stage "peaceful" mass demonstrations in order to remove the government with the bare hands. Since most of Ukrainians and Russians are similar and speak common language (Russian) it was easy to provide some elite Russian units to protect pro-Yanukovych government in the pro-Yushchenko to thwart "democratic" coup.

Now the game continues through the negotiations in which the cleverer will deceive the dumber (or weaker).

Are there any 'good guys'?

I am not sure.

[LibertyRocks]

I found this today regarding Putin's interests in the Ukraine. Lots of people here talking about Soros. I'd say Putin is the one whose done most of the interferring in the Ukraine....

Putin wants Ukraine back in the fold
Russia's President sees stronger ties with Kiev as key to new empire
http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=b9e8e0fb-597e-438c-82bc-e50487e80119

[snip] Mr. Putin has always argued economic ties between Russia and Ukraine are stronger than those among EU countries and he has repeatedly urged Ukraine's leaders to strengthen their links with Moscow.

But he intervened intensely and directly in the Ukraine election campaign and tried to manipulate the outcome.

Opposition politicians in Ukraine claim Russia supplied as much as US$600-million to finance Ukrainian Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovich's bid to become president.

They say Mr. Putin's top advisors worked for Mr. Yanukovich's campaign and note that Russian state television, which is beamed into most Ukrainian homes, campaigned unrelentingly for Mr. Yanukovich.
[snip]

I'd say $600,000,000 is 600,000,000 reasons not to trust Putin or Yanukovich. Russia wouldn't spend that much money on an outside election if not for some reason. Also, Putin is whining about Western interference in this election - what in the heck do you call his interference?

[LibertyRocks]

I never believed communism was wiped out when the wall fell. Just quietly waiting, pushed underground, going by a different name... it seems your post would confirm my suspicions about the true nature of the "New" Russia vs. the USSR.

[sheik yerbouty]

I believe that in rural areas there is hunting, so there must be firearms. Some of the Blue states have more restrictive gun laws than the old Soviet Union.

[peter the great]

For the most part, I agree with Richard W we do need to stay out of this. However, we should register our disapproval and let things work themselves out. What we fail to recognize is that years ago when the Iron Curtain came down George Bush the elder promised the Soviets that we would not expand NATO past Germany. With that being said, then came x42 who not only expanded Nato past Germany but tragically attacked the Serbs. Then in comes Dubya who expands Nato still further and or closer to the Russian border. My question is, What is wrong with this picture? Can you honestly blame putin for this? Perhaps a way out would be for us to invite the Russians into NATO and turn Nato's focus eastward.

[KOZ.]

the russians have supported iraq, iran, n korea and china. i dont see a willingness to cooperate with the us or nato at all.

[peter the great]

What I would consider is the time line of their actions. If you go back to Kosovo when that happened Chechnya was not even on the table. All of a sudden off they go into Chechnya. Through the whole Kosovo affair one of the under reported stories was the alliance that was building up against us was China, India and Russia. Remember Halfbright was on TV looking scared and with good reason. Although due to time restraints I really do not have the time to really research this I would venture to say that the Iraq and Iran deals came in at about this time frame.

[KOZ.]

i'll agree with you that kosovo was a mistake in many instances. i have friends in the us government that would say it was necesary, so i've got both sides, but to me it was more about protecting clinton than fighting for anybody.
so i could easily assume that there was fallout that we are not aware of.

however we supposedly went in for humanitarian reasons, that russia helped out with (i'm thinking of the conflict at the airport to support that thought).

that being said, russia continued to support iraq through the oil for food program up til the end of the program. to me it seems like they are trying to build another empire as opposed to be 'friends' with the US. what are your thoughts?

[peter the great]

A lot of what you have said is true. Where I differ with you is that yes Russia would like to build an empire of sorts. You must remember this is not the 1940's. Times have changed but you must put yourself in their shoes. You must remember that they are a very poor country with a standard of living nothing like ours. To give you an illustration I was just in the Ukraine in September. Would you believe that outhouses are common in some places in Eastern Europe. With that being said, they could want an empire all they want but to match us and surpass us they have got a long way to go and more pressing problems. Furthermore, remember where that school that got hit a few months back situations like that could erupt at any moment. Finally I believe that they want to be a world power like they once were and at the same time be friends with us and we do need them not only in the war on terror but on the world stage in Old Europe versus New Europe, The War on Terror and The US versus China, who if you do remember fought us in Korea and stole our airplane a while back and spied on us at Los Alamos. Last if we could only get them to pump more oil.

[philetus]

There is credible testimony that the collapse of the Soviet Union was pre-planned by Kremlin strategists, that it has been carefully managed by the secret police and other hidden structures of the former Soviet state. There are those who argue that liberalization in the former Soviet Union is an ongoing totalitarian experiment in controlled democracy. The purpose of this experiment has partly to do with the reinvigoration of the totalitarian regime. By replacing neo-Stalinism with a more subtle system based on perceptions management, the Kremlin can better monitor those elements of Russian society which oppose them. Another purpose of this experiment in controlled liberalization is to weaken the West by taking away its image of the enemy. Without an obvious threat from Russia, America would be encouraged to disarm.

http://www.antipas.org/news/russia/russia_problem.html

[Jackal007]

I agree with you. I've ALWAYS lamented the "downsizing" or "rift-reduction in forces" of the U.S. military after the "Cold War"...thought it was stupid, stupid, stupid!

Of course, being only a "lowly" lieutenant at the time, who was going to listen to me?

One reason, (well, the ONLY reason) I left the Active military in 1994, was (you guessed it) Bill Clinton. I saw a once proud, well armed, well trained Army "gutted". I saw our Army go from almost one million active duty troops to 460,00! OVER HALF! I saw facilities budgets rendered to almost 'nil...barracks with leaking roofs, and bad plumbing, which went months before repairs...remember, TRAINING comes first.

I saw services like gas stations close, because they didn't have the money to keep the pumps on. I saw paved parking lots that started having grass grow between the CRACKS in them because there was no money to FILL the cracks. Buildings that had peeling/flaking paint, that couldn't be painted...NO MONEY!

I saw armored units(tanks) that had to conduct tactical training on GOLF CARTS the last quarter of the fiscal year because we didn't (yeah, MY tank company was forced to do that!) have the $$$'s to PUT FUEL in our tanks(armored vehicles)! Yeah, and the f*#@ing press never said much about this! Screw them.

So-o-o, I got out, and after 5 years of being in the IRR, I went back into the Reserve.

Under the Bush administration it IS getting better, but it could be ALOT better.