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Mexico, U.S. reach accord on migrants' Social Security
El Universal Online ^ | November 23, 2004 | Wire services

Posted on 11/23/2004 11:03:48 AM PST by Regulator

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To: justanotherfreeper
"Have you read the entire article? No, it isn't a few, we're talking potentially millions of people."

The article says that the agreement applies *only* to those Mexicans who have already paid money in to our Social Security Administration.

...And to collect their monthly checks, they have to return home to Mexico.

Perhaps you'd prefer to keep their SS money and prevent them from going back to Mexico??

61 posted on 11/23/2004 12:10:00 PM PST by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: skip_intro
Just out of curiosity, will they have to pay US income taxes, like most of us will, on this already taxed money?

My understanding is it depends on whether they have to pay income tax as foreign nationals (some foreign nationals pay US income tax) If they pay US income tax yes, if not no (unless Mexico taxes the income, which I don't know.)

62 posted on 11/23/2004 12:12:50 PM PST by justanotherfreeper
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To: WildTurkey
Foreign workers do not pay into SS since they do not receive SS benefits. (There maybe some exceptions but this is the general rule.) The only way a foreign worker would pay into SS system is if they were pretending to be an American worker. I do believe it is a crime to forge US documents, if not please let me know, I'd like to start copying twenty dollar bills right away.

What is happening is Bush is going to put millions of illegals into the SS system so that they can collect SS benefits back in Mexico, and you and I will have to pay for it.

63 posted on 11/23/2004 12:25:18 PM PST by jpsb
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To: Southack
But only for 18 months -- they can have worked in Mexico for the other 8 and a half years and qualify for US Social Security. That's why it's called a "totalization" agreement -- you "totalize" (governmentese for average) all work done in both countries and then pay out as if you worked in only one place the whole time. For most countries we have these kind of agreements with, they have systems that are equivalent and the other country pay the US whatever taxes were withheld in their country (or vice versa.) This agreement is different in that the retirement systems are so different, and Mexico is getting a deal that NO other country we have these agreements with is getting.

And you're assuming there is no fraud -- how do you PROVE only those who have paid into the system will get benefits? Forget about being able to verify a Mexican work history -- what about multiple people paying on the same stolen SS#? Five people paid, but ten claim they paid, and who do you believe since you have no way of determining which five actually paid in?

64 posted on 11/23/2004 12:26:38 PM PST by justanotherfreeper
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To: Regulator

Well, actually, social security was used to pay for the Vietnam war.


65 posted on 11/23/2004 12:27:27 PM PST by Bogie
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To: Southack
OK, there does appear to be a little hack with the operant sentence, so I'll correct it, and you can go back to your mantra:

"Especially when they came here against our laws, remained here against our laws, worked here against our laws, committed document fraud if they got paid Social Security (gotta have a number, ya know)

And no, I don't care if they get "their" money back. They chose to come here illegally, they broke all the laws, so the FICA tax they paid....Oh Well. Thanks for the contribution, now go home.

66 posted on 11/23/2004 12:28:22 PM PST by Regulator
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To: jpsb
Foreign workers do not pay into SS since they do not receive SS benefits. (There maybe some exceptions but this is the general rule.)

If they are on the payroll, they are paying social security and income taxes. That is the "general rule".

67 posted on 11/23/2004 12:33:28 PM PST by WildTurkey
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To: jpsb

Workers who have a resident alien card not only pay into social security but can also get SS benefits.

But there is a big difference between a worker with a resident alien card and an illegal alien.


68 posted on 11/23/2004 12:36:43 PM PST by brianl703 (Border crossing is a misdemeanor. So is drunk driving. Which do we have more checkpoints for?)
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To: Regulator
..., they will have the right to the savings they accumulated while working in the neighboring country.

So that means they will get less than they put in, too?

69 posted on 11/23/2004 12:42:05 PM PST by OrioleFan (Republicans believe every day is July 4th, DemocRATs believe every day is April 15th. - Reagan)
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To: justanotherfreeper; jpsb
You both are correct. Depending on the visa type, tax treaty with the country of residence, and IRS "substantial presence" test, an alien working in the U.S. may not be liable for either income taxes or any of the other taxes. See the IRS page here: IRS Tax Treaty Page

Note that in the case of people working here who are exempt, that it is another incentive to employ foreigners. Because all taxes are booked as a cost to employ someone; it's just a shell game to call them a tax that the employee pays.

70 posted on 11/23/2004 12:52:32 PM PST by Regulator
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To: Southack
Because you have to be old to get Social Security funds,....

Wrong again. According to the Social Security pamphlet "Understanding the Benefits" or www.socialsecurity.gov. On page 5 under the subtitle "Social Security is more than retirement" Depending on your circumstances, you may be eligible for Social Security at any age. In fact, Social Security pays more benefits to children than any other government program. Today, more than 45 million people, about one out of every six Americans, collect some kind of Social Security benefits.

71 posted on 11/23/2004 12:58:12 PM PST by texastoo (a "has-been" Republican)
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To: All

Side Note: PBS will be broadcasting "Los Angeles Today" around 8:00-9:00 PM depending on where you live. You can see for yourselves what our Freeper friends who live there have been talking about.


72 posted on 11/23/2004 12:59:51 PM PST by NewRomeTacitus (I'm looking for a batch of compasses that point South for handing out.)
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To: OrioleFan
So that means they will get less than they put in, too?

He he. No, in their case, I think typically it'll be more. Or they could end up getting screwed like the rest of us. Welcome to the club...

Look forward to the Congress upping the full benefits age to 70 in the real near future. And looking for ways to do a Terri Schindler-Schiavo job on all of us...

73 posted on 11/23/2004 1:03:59 PM PST by Regulator
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To: justanotherfreeper
"what about multiple people paying on the same stolen SS#? Five people paid, but ten claim they paid, and who do you believe since you have no way of determining which five actually paid in?"

You've got that potential for SS fraud whether this agreement is signed or not.

On the other hand, this agreement makes them go back to Mexico to collect.

For whatever reason, many posters on this thread seem to be jumping up and down mad about that sort of agreement.

Frankly, I *like* the idea of giving them incentives to go home. It beats the heck out of whatever we're doing today.

74 posted on 11/23/2004 1:05:11 PM PST by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Regulator

I figured up my retirement last week (wanting to retire early) and I expect SS to be means tested by the time I expect to get any of MY money back (14 years from now). I guess I was right to not plan for SS like my liberal twin brother who retired from teaching this year. Now he's having to go back to work.


75 posted on 11/23/2004 1:47:42 PM PST by OrioleFan (Republicans believe every day is July 4th, DemocRATs believe every day is April 15th. - Reagan)
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To: OrioleFan
I figured up my retirement last week (wanting to retire early) and I expect SS to be means tested by the time I expect to get any of MY money back

Undoubtedly.

76 posted on 11/23/2004 1:54:08 PM PST by Regulator
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To: Southack
On the other hand, this agreement makes them go back to Mexico to collect

It is also another incentive to come here, since any SS they get from this treaty is easier and better than what they get in their own country.

For those of us paying to subsidize their children to the detriment of ours, it's just one more siphon from our bank accounts to Mexico.

How many illegal alien children in the schools of Alabama? California has, conservatively, hundreds of thousands (likely millions). The Los Angeles Unified School District is now 85% "hispanic" (really) and the San Jose Unified School District is now 55% "hispanic". Think they're all legal immigrants, or not anchor babies?

77 posted on 11/23/2004 1:59:15 PM PST by Regulator
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To: Regulator
On the other hand, this agreement makes them go back to Mexico to collect - Southack

"It is also another incentive to come here, since any SS they get from this treaty is easier and better than what they get in their own country." - Regulator

You made me laugh by giving me an image of illegal aliens saying that they carefully considered their retirement options when deciding to make a border crossing!

Perhaps you should just admit that you are reactively against any incentive to get Mexicans to return home voluntarily. You want your boxcars filled with illegals headed back South on every railroad in America, and you want it now, and if you can't have that sort of 8 million person roundup, then you are against everything else.

78 posted on 11/23/2004 2:10:06 PM PST by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Regulator
Notice President Fox announced...concerning America
Where's our president's announcement? or do we not get one until Fox says so?

79 posted on 11/23/2004 2:15:05 PM PST by azhenfud ("He who is always looking up seldom finds others' lost change...")
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To: Southack

I don't think any careful consideration is even needed. What happens once word gets around about these Social Security payments, and how to get them?


80 posted on 11/23/2004 2:34:11 PM PST by brianl703 (Border crossing is a misdemeanor. So is drunk driving. Which do we have more checkpoints for?)
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