Perfect John Adams quote showing that Religion has a place in government (Vanity)

[AVNevis]

I was doing reasearch this evening for a debate tournament I am participating in a couple of weeks when I came upon this quote:

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." -John Adams

It seems to me this just nails the aclu argument about separation of church and state. Here we have a founding father stating that the constitution does not work if the people are not moral and religious. It seems to me we should be using this quote much more often in debates with liberals.

[Robert_Paulson2]

Virtually all the evidence that attempts to connect a foundation of Christianity upon the government rests mainly on quotes and opinions from a few of the colonial statesmen who had professed a belief in Christianity. Sometimes the quotes come from their youth before their introduction to Enlightenment ideas or simply from personal beliefs. But statements of beliefs, by themselves, say nothing about Christianity as the source of the U.S. government.

There did occur, however, some who wished a connection between church and State. Patrick Henry, for example, proposed a tax to help sustain "some form of Christian worship" for the state of Virginia. But Jefferson and other statesmen did not agree. In 1779, Jefferson introduced a bill for the Statute for Religious Freedom which became Virginia law. Jefferson designed this law to completely separate religion from government. None of Henry's Christian views ever got introduced into Virginia's or U.S. Government law.

Unfortunately, later developments in our government have clouded early history. The original Pledge of Allegiance, authored by Francis Bellamy in 1892 did not contain the words "under God." Not until June 1954 did those words appear in the Allegiance. The United States currency never had "In God We Trust" printed on money until after the Civil War. Many Christians who visit historical monuments and see the word "God" inscribed in stone, automatically impart their own personal God of Christianity, without understanding the Framers Deist context.

In the Supreme Court's 1892 Holy Trinity Church vs. United States, Justice David Brewer wrote that "this is a Christian nation." Many Christians use this as evidence. However, Brewer wrote this in dicta, as a personal opinion only and does not serve as a legal pronouncement. Later Brewer felt obliged to explain himself: "But in what sense can [the United States] be called a Christian nation? Not in the sense that Christianity is the established religion or the people are compelled in any manner to support it. On the contrary, the Constitution specifically provides that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.' Neither is it Christian in the sense that all its citizens are either in fact or in name Christians. On the contrary, all religions have free scope within its borders. Numbers of our people profess other religions, and many reject all."

[Dalite]

"The claim that "The Founding Fathers" were Deists is plainly untrue when it is used to imply that they were not Christians. It is, however, true when it is understood that all Christian denominations are a subset of deism, the belief in God."

I should have been more plain when I quoted a belief in a God and Natural Law. This is not to say they were not believers.

Points to ponder: Who brought the Masonic belief to America, and where was the first lodge? What does this have to do with the founding fathers? Where did these perpetual conspiracy theories involving the Illuminati and other organizations devoted to looking over the less informed masses come from?

If nothing else, out founding fathers were intellectual; and in that they were a lot more open to pragmatic exploration of religious beliefs than the common man. They also were frugal with the right to vote.

There is a lot in history that is lost after first hand accounts fall prey to attrition.

[risk]

Smaller third world limits? Please expain.

Third world peoples bring "diversity." They have funny ideas about morality and ethics. They have funny attitudes about the rule of law. A lot of them aren't Christian (no accident there). Still more think that Anglo-Saxon culture is oppression personified. Yet to all, west is one vast Disneyland for adults.

For practical purposes, we're going to have immigration from the third world, and it's going to be Islamic, and it's going to be from bizarre places where female circumcision is commonplace or food isn't washed before it's eaten. But we can keep that down to a minimum while we encourage our own people to reproduce.

It's all about cheap labor and willing troops to defend the frontiers. The Romans did it, too. And look what happened to them.

The third world is having a population explosion. By definition they have a problem with too many people. Therefore the pressure to come here where we manage limited space well in our urban areas and have open spaces to boot, is immense. Resist excessive third-world immigraiton, or this land will no longer remain an English-speaking country with a respect for the rule of law.

[scars]

Contrary to PowerPro's post, this is what I've learned about Franklin's character. He was a pragmatic idividual and leaned toward what we call agnostic today. My "favorite" founders are Jefferson, Adams and Hamilton. These were strong men with faith and conviction.

[Torie]

The reality however is that the US was a Christian nation, an overwhelmingly Protestant nation in fact until the 20th century, but not with a Christian or Protestant government (whatever the latter might be, which I cannot imagine, given all the sects). The amazing thing, is that with all its vast wealth and power, unlike any other such place, America retains an out of the box interest in matters of faith. The Puritan seed is alive and well on the fruited plain. It is what give this nation "virtu," so says this near atheist.

[risk]

We needed each of them to found our nation, and it still packed the time bomb of slavery. I think we're close to what we need now. We'd better be willing to kill and die to preserve it.

[Torie]

The third world outside a few places (Black Africa and some places in the Arab world) is having the makings of a population implosion. Muslim immigrants are still a tiny number into the US. All the gnashing of teeth is about "Christian" Hispanics.

[scars]

If a third world country has a population explosion, does that necessarily mean that they have the means to come to our country? see Bangaladesh

[risk]

I live in California, and I gnash my teeth about excessive and illegal Hispanic immigration.

[Torie]

I do too, and I am continually amazed about just how well HIspanics are doing in the state. Heck in the desert, almost all the service personnel are Hispanic, and they do a damn fine job. It does help to know a few words of Spanish I must admit. I am picking up some more of the lingo just for convenience sake.

[Swordmaker]

These out-of-context quotations are very nice. Why don't you provide the link where you cut-and-pasted them from?

http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

The founding fathers were THINKERS. They debated many things in their letters and raised points for argument, sometimes to support them and sometimes to knock them down. Taking quotations from these discussions can only be appreciated by reading the entire series of letters, back and forth, between the debators as they argued their positions (or taken positions).

What they were not was dogmatic. They were capable of raising points counter to their own beliefs and examining them, criticising them, and sometimes even changing their beliefs based on what they determined was true. Dogmatic men could not have forged the Republic out of the disparate dogmas of competing sects.

The points made in these discussions of the errors made by prior Christian (or other religions) are well taken. The purpose of such discussions was to find a way to AVOID these mistakes, not to deny the value of religion, but to avoid the failings of religion. One cannot avoid errors unless one recognizes them.

[risk]

I took Spanish for a short time, but I've forgotten most of it. What I do remember is that my teacher said that Spanish would be quite useful in America during my middle age and older years.

[Torie]

Cocina is kitchen, puerta is door, donde esta (sp) is where is. I wanted a door mat at Walmart. I said "puerta mat." That was enough.

[GarySpFc]

Also, try to understand that our founding fathers believed in deism, and may not have necessarily considered themselves to be Christian. They believed in a higher power called God, and in Natural Law, but were probably not as encumbered by denomination obsession as we are today.

Nonsense! You have been listening to far too much skeptical rhetoric. The colonists were familiar with deist thinking. But deism never gained a strong foothold in America. The first Great Awakening, the religious revival of the 1740s, was partially responsible for cutting short the spread of deism,

In many states at the time of the Constitutional Convention, confessed deists were not allowed to hold public office. Deism was generally held in low esteem, as such laws indicate. Additionally, Deism as practiced at the time of America's founding was far different from what we find in our country today, and it certainly was not atheism. Only 3 of the Founding Fathers signing the Dec. Of Independence were Deists, and their brand of Deism was far different than that which we see today.

[DJ MacWoW]

In the Supreme Court's 1892 Holy Trinity Church vs. United States, Justice David Brewer wrote that "this is a Christian nation." Many Christians use this as evidence. However, Brewer wrote this in dicta, as a personal opinion only and does not serve as a legal pronouncement

That may be true but in 1811 this case, People v. Ruggles; (1811) the Supreme Court said this:

"... Offenses against religion and morality ... strike at the root of moral obligation, and weaken the security of the social ties ... this
[First Amendment] declaration ... never meant to withdraw religion ...
and with it the best sanctions of moral and social obligation from all consideration and notice of the law ..." Supreme Court, 1811.

And in 1844, Vidal v. Girard's Executors:
"The purest principles of morality are to be taught. Where are they found? Whoever searches for them must go to the source from which a Christian man derives his faith - the Bible.
United States Supreme Court, 1844.

Even state courts weighed in:

"... What constitutes the standard of good morals? Is it not Christianity? There certainly is none other. Say that it cannot be appealed to, and... what would be good morals The day of moral virtue in which we live would, in an instant, if that standard were abolished, lapse into the dark and murky night of ... immorality." Supreme Court of South Carolina, 1846

"... For whatever strikes at the root of Christianity tends manifestly to the dissolution of civil government ... because it tends to corrupt the morals of the people, and to destroy good order." Supreme Court of New York, 1811.

And the Senate Judiciary Committee:
"... Religion ... must be considered as the foundation on which the whole structure rests ... In this age there can be no substitute for Christianity... the great conservative element on which we must rely for the purity and permanence of free institutions." Senate Judiciary Committee, 1853

[notamused]

As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court
you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each
one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view
... it is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments!


DID YOU KNOW?

As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door.

DID YOU KNOW?

As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall,
right above where the Supreme Court judges sit, display of the Ten Commandments!


DID YOU KNOW?

There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the
Federal Buildings and Monuments in Washington, D.C.


DID YOU KNOW?

James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement:
"We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves,
to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments
of God."


DID YOU KNOW?

Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country
said: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this
great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians! , not on
religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".


DID YOU KNOW?

Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher,
whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.


DID YOU KNOW?

Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were
members of the established orthodox churches in the colonies.


DID YOU KNOW?

Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep
their authority and instead of interpreting the law would begin making
law an oligarchy, the rule of few over many.

DID YOU KNOW?

The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said:
"Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers."
How, then, have we gotten to the point that everything we have done for 220 years in
this country is now suddenly wrong and unconstitutional?

Please give a copy of this to everyone you can. Lets put it around the world and let the world see and remember what this great country was built on.

Thank you!!

[Robert_Paulson2]

The founders were largely agnostic or deists, rejected the diety of Christ, miracles and a PERSONAL God. They rejected calvanism and abhorred the 'religious' governmental HELL of Europes pogroms. Less than 15 percent of Americas citizens actually attended church at our founding as a nation.

the idea that we are or ever were a Christian nation is ridiculous an repugnant to the FACTS of history. That the virtues of this nation are parallel with SOME attributes of Christianity is undeniable, but they are also consitent with some attributes of Hammurabi's code, Confusionism and even some Hindu philosophy.

There were no 'evangelicals' per se, amongst the founders. And although they professed belief in a 'higher power' they did not publicly espouse a personal belief in a living Savior, for the most part, as we who are evangelicals do today.

Saying so does not demean the limited faith of our Fathers. They did the best the could with what light they had. But it does put the lie to the light... that we are a Christian nation... which is the goal of certain political-religious movements in the united states notably the chalcedonians and wall builders...

The government of this nation is to be TOLERANT of all religion, including the NON religious beliefs of agnostics, athiests and pratitioners of cults (as long as they do not harm their followers or the social order at large.)

The christian bible was used at the outset of this nation to make sure that people of color WOULD remain slaves. Particularly quotes from the New Testament. When the civil war was fought and won by the antislave forces of the north, the deconstrution of the religious institution of legalized slavery began the process of natural decay assisted by a secularist north that valued human freedom over FUNDAMENTALIST religious orthodoxy in the south.

America is clearly a secular nation... with the tandem benefits of freedom OF religion, as well as freedom FROM religion if we so choose.

Chalcedonian and Wall builder myths notwithstanding.

[narses]

Ping.

[B4Ranch]

>>this land will no longer remain an English-speaking country with a respect for the rule of law.<<

There will be two choices, a revolution or a division.

Not too far down the road, I see America dividing up into areas similar to Europe's division. Yes, it is an intentional division. Read Agenda 21 carefully.

Our Court system no longer seeks justice, just legal controls of the people.

Our tax system isn't to pay for government programs. That is secondary. The primary reason is to keep the intelligent hard workers from getting rich too fast.

These are the people who can think, who seem to be thinking all the time about forty different snags, traps, curves and other problems. Amazingly, they work out the solutions too.

A very dangerous breed that must be contained and controlled.

[Boomer Geezer]

The denominational affiliations of these men were a matter of public record. Among the {55] delegates {to the Constitutional Convention} were 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 unknown, and only 3 deists--Williamson, Wilson, and Franklin--this at a time when church membership entailed a sworn public confession of biblical faith.

Swordmaker. Thanks for posting this. I've been trying to collect this info for some time but can't seem to get a complete handle on it (most likely due to my poor researching techniques). Do you have a link to the above, and hopefully showing a break down of names along with the denominations?

Thanks again for the post -- at least it's more than I already had.