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Innocence Abroad (They hate us, they really and truly hate us!)
Tech Central Station ^ | November 19, 2004 | Eric R. Staal

Posted on 11/19/2004 11:14:05 AM PST by quidnunc

In light of how the media and political elites in Europe continue to denounce the war in Iraq and openly criticize the reelection of President George W. Bush, it is surprising that their reaction to the replacement of Secretary of State Colin Powell with Condoleezza Rice has been so favorable. After all, Powell was widely regarded in Europe as the single moderate voice in an administration of hawks.

Despite the positive remarks about Condoleezza Rice from German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer and his French counterpart Michel Barnier, it is important not to underestimate the depth of anti-Americanism in Europe and its impact on U.S. foreign policy around the world.

-snip-

It is important to understand that modern American conservatism has no equivalent in Europe and has never been accepted as legitimate in European intellectual circles, which are monolithically both secular and liberal. There is no National Review or Weekly Standard, no talk radio personalities or Fox News to challenge the liberal orthodoxy. Serious ideological diversity among think-tanks and political foundations in any European country is negligible.

Just how much influence do these opinion shapers have? The Pew Research Center's Global Attitudes Survey from March this year noted that "solid majorities in France and Germany believe the U.S. is conducting the war on terrorism in order to control Mideast oil and dominate the world." In Turkey "as many as 31 percent say that suicide attacks against Americans and other Westerners in Iraq are justifiable." Turkey is important, because it stayed out of the coalition in Iraq and we know whose club it wants to join.

-snip-

(Excerpt) Read more at techcentralstation.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Editorial; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: eurotrash; socialism
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To: bill1952

Britain is EU, sorry. The PAN is in power.


121 posted on 11/20/2004 6:00:55 AM PST by Haro_546 (Christian Zionist)
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To: quidnunc

Personally, I welcome Europe's hatred of the United States. It tells me we're doing the right thing.


122 posted on 11/20/2004 6:02:39 AM PST by O.C. - Old Cracker (When the cracker gets old, you wind up with Old Cracker. - O.C.)
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To: Hun in the sun

Yes, that's what I'm referring to, but maintaining the cemeteries is easy. What about honoring their sacrifice in ways that are truly meaningful, like by being grateful for what they did to liberate France, instead of being back-stabbers?


123 posted on 11/20/2004 6:31:09 AM PST by PatriotGirl827 (God Bless America!)
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To: Hun in the sun

"...Most Euros doubt this chronology..."

Yes most do. That stems from their fundamental misunderstanding of the problem and thier warped world view. That's nothing new though. Most Euros also didn't get it before they were invaded prior to WW2 either. Don't worry though. Just like then, we'll stop the problem before it crushes you (AGAIN), even though you turned your back on us! That's the kind of people we are...


124 posted on 11/20/2004 11:50:20 AM PST by ConservativeAgenda (Don't rely upon others to stand up for what you believe is right!)
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To: kingsurfer; Hun in the sun; doug from upland
It is important to understand that modern American conservatism has no equivalent in Europe
and has never been accepted as legitimate in European intellectual circles
which are monolithically both secular and liberal

Berlusconi comes closest to an American conservative.
He'd get along well with Rush Limbaugh.
And he owns a newspaper ('Il Giornale') and a TV network.

125 posted on 11/20/2004 5:10:40 PM PST by Allan
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To: Allan

Thanks for the info.


126 posted on 11/20/2004 6:47:07 PM PST by doug from upland (Vietnam Vets: FINALLY -- welcome home, heroes)
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To: Allan

hi @ all,

first to my person:

26, male, half german, half american ;-)
ATM resident in Germany.
Hm... pretty hard for you to attack me?
I am sure it isn`t...
First of all:

Berlusconi have to appear in court, because he is accused beeing used his power
to enrich himself...
and he is accused to use his newspaper / TV to manipulate the italian public...
Really a great example... are there any similarities to US?
*applause*

I think the way this discussion goes is very alarming.
In my opinion we live in a global world.
And then i read sentences like "i dont care about europe" ...
"I hate them..."; "They hate us..."
And why do you compare US Forces with EU Forces?
Do you really think that a war in these dimension will afford a bright
vanquisher???
Are you so stupid (this is meant global to anyone who talk about WWIII, and nothing
else would happen if US and EU start war against each other...)
2 nuclear bombs on nakasaki and hiroshima brought the victory against Japan in 1945
Well let me see... France has nuclear weapons, Germany also have access to them, too.

So what do you think would happen to all of us and to the worlds civilation if a war happens?
Fact is, the time of conventional war is over... (exept you attack a country witch isnt equipped
with weapons of mass destruction, like Iraq and probable the next target Iran).

But in case of a nuclear war, it wont help neither US nor EU...
All would be over... So it isnt important who have the biggest Army...
and it doesnt make a difference whether the one side has 500 nuclear weapons
and the other side has only 200 ;-) (for example)

What happened in Europe under the dictatorship of Hitler was more awful than words can ever say,
no doubt. but its over for nearly 60 years, so don`t use it all along as an argument... thats more
than meagre.
Time has changed... people have changed.
The same about slavery in US. Its history. Sure dark history, but HISTORY!
Lets learn from it, dont accuse it to each other...

Come on people, dont be that stupid (this goes out to all people and nations) and find a way to
live together...
Well i like my motherland (Germany) just as well as my fatherland (US)
But discussions like these makes me pain.
Everytime a nation says its the biggest, greatest, strongest it leads to hurt, THAT
is what us the history told! (any counterparts?)
I miss the cosmopolitanism in this threat. especially from the US side...
and i ask myself who is running through the world with blinders...
and congratiulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
prejudices aganist EU (above all against france) attest the famous
prejudice of egoism on US side.

In any german board i cant read sentences like "stupid americans, i hate them all"
Sure there are some people against Bush, BUT NOT AGAINST AMERICAN PEOPLE!!
and no threat i have seen was that kind of xenophobic like this threat.
My fathers side feel blamed a bit.

And comments like "Fritzy" or equal proof the high intellectual level of some
persons in this room...

Well, thats what i have to say,
who is right will teach the history... nobody can say it today.

Greetings to ALL

osiris (marc)


127 posted on 11/20/2004 7:57:06 PM PST by osirisonline
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To: quidnunc
They don't need to come here, and we don't need to go there.

They can stew in their own juices.

128 posted on 11/20/2004 8:00:36 PM PST by Cold Heat (There is more to do! "Mr. Kerry, about that Navy discharge?")
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To: osirisonline
osirisonline wrote: And comments like "Fritzy" or equal proof the high intellectual level of some persons in this room...

It was 'Fritzl' not 'Fritzy', Hansl… or should I say Half-Hansl?

129 posted on 11/20/2004 8:06:30 PM PST by quidnunc (Omnis Gaul delenda est)
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To: quidnunc
There is no National Review or Weekly Standard, no talk radio personalities or Fox News to challenge the liberal orthodoxy.

There's The Spectator in Britain and SkyNews on satellite.

130 posted on 11/20/2004 8:15:28 PM PST by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: Hun in the sun

So why did you move to Florida? Why not stay in Germany?


131 posted on 11/20/2004 8:26:54 PM PST by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: osirisonline
Berlusconi have to appear in court because he is accused beeing used his power to enrich himself...
and he is accused to use his newspaper / TV to manipulate the italian public...
Really a great example... are there any similarities to US?

The first question, I can't answer for the U.S.
I could name the Prime Minister of Canada
(He ran a large Steamship Line while he was Finance Minister
and had many laws passed that benefitted himself)
however, in Canada, we expect politicians to use their power to enrich themselves
and he has not been asked to appear in court.

As for the second question, no, definitely not,
no one in North America ever uses newspapers or TV to manipulate public opinion in favour of any political party.

132 posted on 11/20/2004 8:32:43 PM PST by Allan
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To: osirisonline
And then i read sentences like "i dont care about europe" ...

But what are Americans supposed to do?
Europe is committing suicide.
Should the U.S. follow along
so that Europeans won't disapprove of them?

In any german board i cant read sentences like "stupid americans, i hate them all"

They may not write it, but they think it.
Don't tell me they don't because I've been in Germany many times
and I've lived in Europe.

(P.S. I am not an American)

133 posted on 11/20/2004 8:50:23 PM PST by Allan
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To: quidnunc

Considering their praise for Kerry, Clinton, et al, I feel glad that they hate us. So be it.


134 posted on 11/20/2004 8:52:39 PM PST by ladyinred (Congratulations President Bush! Four more years!)
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To: CBart95

Yes, and those hands in support of the terrorists are going to be drawn back in as bloody stumps one day - soon. They are just beginning to feel it--Spain, Holland, France, Sweden.

Their attitudes have been nurtured by socialism to the point they look to the govt for every comfort level. It is a false security.

vaudine


135 posted on 11/20/2004 9:12:13 PM PST by vaudine
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To: Hun in the sun
Doesn`t make sense for most Euros.

It will when you have had a few more Van Gogh incidents
in a few more European countries.

When the Europeans turn on the Moslems
it will be the Americans who look like the angels.

(Once again).

136 posted on 11/20/2004 9:18:53 PM PST by Allan
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To: Haro_546; quidnunc

Actually, PAN is a good example of what I am talking about. PAN is, as you say, Mexico's conservative party, and it is conservative in the traditionalist meaning of the word. They tend to be pro-business, relatively speaking, and they tend to be more openly Catholic. But ideologically they are all over the map. They began as a Catholic rebellion against what was originally a pretty leftist PRI party, back in thirties. Of course, PRI is not nearly so ideological now, it is more a machine than a party. And PAN has positioned itself to oppose whatever PRI is doing, more socialist than PRI at times (and sometimes less), usually always more pro-private-business than PRI and always more pro-Church than PRI.

But they accept the presumptions of centralized power, and so would be quite at home inside the tradional US Democratic party.

American conservatism of the Jeffersonian "classic liberal" type: limited government, rule of law, individual liberty, is not generally accepted outside the US. You will find people who admire the notions, but they will always tell you "it won't work here".

Culturally, I would say that an American Republican is more attuned to a PANista than any other, I would agree with you there.


137 posted on 11/20/2004 11:17:30 PM PST by marron
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To: marron
The reason it wont work anyplace outside the US is: American conservatism has grown from a rebellion against the enemies of the constitution, the Republican party should really be called the Constitution party. Laws shape the development of society as much as society shapes the growth of thelaw. Therefore, it's impossible to find an equivalent of American Conservatives out side the US.

There are similar parties, though. Like the Liberal/Reform/Conservative in canada, The Ancient Whigs in Britain, the liberals in Australia, and the PAN in mexico, The PP in Spain. All of them Traditionalist parties with pro-business leanings, but none have at their center the principles liberalism that are the heart of our constitution.
138 posted on 11/21/2004 12:41:49 AM PST by Haro_546 (Christian Zionist)
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To: marron
"American conservatism of the Jeffersonian "classic liberal" type: limited government, rule of law, individual liberty, is not generally accepted outside the US."

American conservatism is "classically liberal"? What a joke. Silly emotional hysteria about abortion, homosexuals, sex education, darwinism etc. among American conservatives is not something which can be called classically liberal. The Republican party is slowly losing any real resemblance to classical liberalism with out-of-control spending and coming federal imposition of the religious right's agenda.

139 posted on 11/21/2004 1:41:43 AM PST by Truthsayer20
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To: Allan

LOL.
you have to be a clairvoyant, if you can say that
that EU hates US without ever reading it in any
chatroom.
This is only your opinion. If you want to know
how EU people think, ask them!
and dont try to read tea leaves ;-)
I dont belive that US became a such great nation with
your kind of bigotry


140 posted on 11/21/2004 6:08:33 AM PST by osirisonline
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