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GIs who refused job had unarmored trucks
courier press ^ | 10 17 04 | JIM KRANE

Posted on 10/17/2004 2:40:08 PM PDT by freepatriot32

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- The U.S. Army Reserve soldiers who refused orders to drive a dangerous route were members of one of a few supply units whose trucks are still unarmored, their commanding general said Sunday.

The soldiers, now under investigation, had previously focused on local missions in safer parts of southern Iraq and had never driven a convoy north along the attack-prone roads passing through Baghdad.

"Not all of their trucks are completely armored. In their case, they haven't had the chance to get armored," said Brig. Gen. James E. Chambers, commanding general of 13th Corps Support Command, which sends some 250 convoys ferrying Army fuel, food and ammunition across Iraq each day.

Chambers, speaking at a press conference in Baghdad, said the 18 soldiers involved in the incident had returned to duty and it was "too early" to determine if any will undergo disciplinary action.

He said a pair of investigations are examining the soldiers' disobedience as well as their allegations that the trucks were unfit for the hazardous journey. He declined to discuss particulars, citing the soldiers' rights.

Chambers said 80 percent of the 13th Coscom's 4,000 trucks have been fitted with custom steel plate, but some of those in the unit that balked, the 343rd Quartermaster Company, were among the last left unarmored, because the unit's mission normally confines it to a less dangerous part of Iraq.

None of the 13th Coscom's trucks arrived in Iraq with armor. Since February, the unit's engineers and private contractors have been working in impromptu maintenance yards to weld heavy metal "boxes" over truck cabs.

Chambers said the 18 soldiers who refused the mission on Wednesday morning - driving seven fuel tankers from Tallil air base near Nasiriyah to Taji north of Baghdad - also appeared to have also balked at their mission because of the trucks' bad condition.

"They were concerned about the maintenance," Chambers said. "If there is a maintenance issue, we'll clear it up."

Chambers downplayed the incident, saying the disobedience not indicative of wider U.S. Army morale or maintenance problems. The 18 soldiers were "moved to a separate location" for questioning and have all since returned to duty, the general said.

But Chambers did not downplay the danger of driving Iraq's roads, a job that has become the equivalent of front-line combat with Iraq's insurgency, whose deadliest weapon is the hidden roadside bomb.

"In Jim Chambers' opinion, the most dangerous job in Iraq is driving a truck," he said. Soldiers take their missions realizing "it's not if, but when, they will be attacked."

The Army announced last week it was investigating up to 19 members of a platoon from the 343rd Quartermaster Company based in Rock Hill, South Carolina.

On Wednesday, 19 members of the platoon did not show up for a scheduled 7 a.m. meeting in Tallil to prepare for the fuel convoy's departure a few hours later, a military statement said.

The general said a pair of investigations were already under way, and said there were just 18 soldiers whose actions were being probed.

The first investigation, overseen by the 13th Coscom's inspector general and deputy commander, is looking into maintenance and safety practices at the Talil air base, where the 343rd is based.

The second, headed by the commander of the 300th Area Support Group, has ordered a criminal inquiry to determine if any soldiers committed crimes under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and, if so, whether disciplinary measures are warranted.

"Based on our investigations, other actions may be necessary," Chambers said.

As a result of the incident, the entire 343rd is in the midst of a two-week "stand down," bolting on new armor and upgrading maintenance on its vehicles. The 18 soldiers under investigation must complete additional training and win re-certification to regain permission to perform convoy missions, Chambers said.

He said the incident and ongoing maintenance pause had no effects on supplying the U.S. military here. The 21-vehicle convoy still made the run Wednesday, albeit late.

The 15,000 troops under Chambers' command - almost 90 percent of whom are Reservists or National Guard soldiers - have completed 75,000 convoy missions covering the length and breadth of Iraq and suffered 26 killed since April, Chambers said. No members of the 343rd have been killed in Iraq in the nine months they've been here, the general said.

He denied claims by some of the soldiers to their families that the fuel they were to deliver was contaminated. The platoon has troops from Alabama, Kentucky, North Carolina, Mississippi and South Carolina.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: anamericansoldier; gis; had; iraq; job; recruits; refused; taji; trucks; unarmored; warlist; who
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To: lt.america

I saw Gen Chambers this morning too.

He said that they ran 75,000 missions with 26 total fatalities


21 posted on 10/17/2004 3:08:25 PM PDT by mylife (The roar of the masses could be farts)
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To: MizSterious

Thanks, in the table(s)


22 posted on 10/17/2004 3:09:00 PM PDT by Phsstpok (often wrong, but never in doubt)
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To: freepatriot32
Actually they sandbagged all of the 2 1/2 tons (I believe that was their weight) in Vietnam. I saw a picture of one of the trucks they used in Vietnam and it looked like something out of Mad Max, because it was sandbagged all over and they had mounted a Gatling Gun on the bed and it had a M60 on the roof.
23 posted on 10/17/2004 3:09:09 PM PDT by lt.america (Captain was already taken)
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To: freepatriot32
I want them to have the best equipment too and this needs to be looked into but isn't the real problem soldiers not following orders? There are chain of commands they can go thru without refusing isn't there? This might have been a legitimate and urgent concern but can the military have the troops out guessing and deciding what they will do and what they won't, whenever they want?. Sounds like a big problem developing to me.
24 posted on 10/17/2004 3:09:55 PM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: freepatriot32
This story REALLY smells.

At first, they were refusing to transport "tainted" aircraft fuel, and were "saving lives of US personnel" by refusing to send the fuel forward.

Then, it was a "suicide" mission that they were refusing, which had to be completed by regular Army personnel.(No attacks were made on the convoy during the "suicide mission")

NOW they refused because they didn't have armor plated vehicles?

This story stinks more than an outhouse in August, in FLORIDA!
25 posted on 10/17/2004 3:10:44 PM PDT by Mr. Jazzy (Kerry broke the faith, pure and simple.)
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To: lt.america

one of these days I will scan and post a picture of my 5 ton, they called us the beverly hillbillies because out truck looked like the only thing missing was granny.


26 posted on 10/17/2004 3:12:38 PM PDT by aft_lizard (Actually i dropped in on)
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To: lt.america
They also routinely sandbagged APCs, specifically the M113 according to General Tommy Franks in his biography. IIRC they had a lot of aluminum in them. I could be wrong on the aluminum but I think that is why they used the sandbags--the armor was so poor you were better off on top behind a sandbag than in the vehicle.
27 posted on 10/17/2004 3:14:47 PM PDT by charleston1 (No prisoners.)
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To: mylife
I thought the Gen. did well considering he had to field questions from NPR, NYT, and ABC when I was watching. IMO it sounds like the Army is going above and beyond in the way they are handling this case, and the Gen. was quick to point out how well the 343rd had performed while in Iraq (although it sounds like SOME of the soldiers they have are a bunch of whiners).
28 posted on 10/17/2004 3:15:56 PM PDT by lt.america (Captain was already taken)
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To: Mr. Jazzy

Or burning crap in Iraq( which makes me think that if they are still doing that duty over there these soldiers might be burning poop for a living for awhile over there)

On a side note, I think what will happen is that a few squad leaders will receive field grade article 15's and the rest counseling statements, if not for refusing a order but for not following proper military protocal


29 posted on 10/17/2004 3:16:08 PM PDT by aft_lizard (Actually i dropped in on)
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To: aft_lizard

I would appreciate that. Shortly the 5 ton will also be a thing of the past when they get the 7 1/2 ton completely fielded. The M813 is still dear to my heart though.


30 posted on 10/17/2004 3:18:11 PM PDT by lt.america (Captain was already taken)
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To: freepatriot32

And who do we have to thank for voting NO on the $87 million bill to reinforce the vehicles and provide the armor the military needs??????

A- John Forbes Kerry
B- John Forbes Kerry and John Edwards
C- John Edwards
D- All of the above.


31 posted on 10/17/2004 3:21:21 PM PDT by HighlyOpinionated (There's no excuse for stupidity. It's a choice.)
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To: freepatriot32

Humvees have been 'upgraded' with diamond and armor plate, freepatriot. With not so good results. The weight of the steel armor affects the vehichle's Center Of Gravity and makes the Humvees just as susceptable to rolling as its earlier predecessor. The Jeep.

Use less armor. Adapt with the tried-and-true method of having the driver and three riders. Leave the shotgun seat empty. Put the three in the back uncovered. In a diamond formation. To return fire immediately if ambushed.

Or scrap the Humvees for convoy. Wrong vehichle, anyway. And replace the Humvees with M-113 Armored Personnel Carriers. With a driver. One in the 50. caliber cupola. Plus flankers behind the two M-60 positions.

Leave the box inside the M-113 for storage of lots of ammo.

Jack.


32 posted on 10/17/2004 3:22:57 PM PDT by Jack Deth (Mostly Harmless)
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To: freepatriot32
My best friend (we were commissioned together) spent 13 months over there from Day 1 attached to the 101st, driving a soft-top unarmored Humvee the whole time, sometimes at night with malfunctioning headlights, many times under fire (lotsa bullet and shrapnel holes in the Humvee and canvas top he said), and in 140 degree temperatures (obviously no A/C) - so hot he often couldn't drink his bottled water 'til he found a way to cool it down (hanging it in a wet sock until it was only midly hot to drink). He never refused orders - he did his duty and took care of his men, several of whom were decorated for their service!

These guys are starting to look more and more like malcontents at best, cowards at worst. Naturally they're heroes to the Kerry campaign.

33 posted on 10/17/2004 3:26:03 PM PDT by DTogo (U.S. out of the U.N. & U.N out of the U.S.)
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To: freepatriot32

That wasn't a remote controlled truck you saw. It was an AI operated truck, one that needed no input whatsoever from humans while it operated. No one has yet done it. But a remote truck should be a snap (if, as another Freeper mentioned, we can get by those pesky manual transmissions on the big rigs).


34 posted on 10/17/2004 3:27:45 PM PDT by LibertarianInExile (The Fourth Estate is the Fifth Column.)
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To: aft_lizard

The gal who called home to mama telling her to raise some cain should get latrine duty for the rest of her enlistment.


35 posted on 10/17/2004 3:37:03 PM PDT by McGavin999 (If Kerry can't deal with the "Republican Attack Machine" how is he going to deal with Al Qaeda)
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To: lt.america
There was quite a few LMTV(M1078) and HMTV over there, there problem either was driver training or just poorly built because they broke down constantly and got stuck in sand far more than the average 5 ton. They were supposed to be the replacement vehicle for the 5 ton. HMTV LMTV/FMTV/MTV SERIES TRUCKS
36 posted on 10/17/2004 3:40:37 PM PDT by aft_lizard (Actually i dropped in on)
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To: DTogo; freepatriot32

DTogo, your friend's experience is exactly like mine (from day 1 also) and everyone in my unit. It is also exactly like the experiences of countless other soldiers who, like your friend, never refused orders.

BTW, the wet sock thing only worked if it was hung from your trucks rearview mirror while driving.


37 posted on 10/17/2004 3:41:52 PM PDT by raynearhood ("America is too great for small dreams." - Ronald Reagan, speech to Congress. January 1, 1984.)
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To: aft_lizard
Of course this is my favporite Army Truck the HET at max capacity it weighs 115 tons(231,000 lbs)
38 posted on 10/17/2004 3:45:34 PM PDT by aft_lizard (Actually i dropped in on)
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To: freepatriot32
Here's the bottom line:

THEY DISOBEYED AN ORDER IN A COMBAT ZONE!

They could have been lawfully executed!

The only reason they are temporarily free is because they need a few warm bodies to do some dirty work. Besides where could they run off to?

Mark my words they WILL be prosecuted and sentenced. They are a disgrace to every fighting man/women in the armed forces!
39 posted on 10/17/2004 3:47:31 PM PDT by PJammers (PJihadi! Pa Ja Ack Ba!!)
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To: PJammers

I wouldnt quite go as far as you in saying that, we still dont know the whole story. Even in a Combat Zone you have the right to refuse an unlawful order.


40 posted on 10/17/2004 3:49:01 PM PDT by aft_lizard (Actually i dropped in on)
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