Stay safe !
Posted on 09/03/2004 9:03:10 AM PDT by Doomonyou
Detectives testing residents' guns
2 Bodega Bay men voluntarily help investigators in Jenner killings, say rights violated
Friday, September 3, 2004
By DEREK J. MOORE
THE PRESS DEMOCRAT
Detectives investigating the slayings of two young campers on a Jenner beach have visited the homes of at least two Sonoma County residents this week, seeking permission to test their handguns.
Sheriff's officials wouldn't discuss why the people were contacted, but a Bodega Bay man said he voluntarily handed over two guns.
Bruce, who asked that only his first name be used, wouldn't divulge the make or caliber of the weapons, saying detectives asked him not to reveal that information.
He said he cooperated with investigators because he wants the killings of Jason Allen and Lindsay Cutshall to be solved. But he also believes that he was unfairly questioned simply for being listed in government records on gun owners.
He said other than a drunken driving conviction in 1990 he has no criminal record.
"If this is going to help them, great," he said. "But while they're in here, they're asking, 'Hey, you got anything illegal we need to know about? No, except for the meth lab in my bathroom.' C'mon guys. This is a fishing expedition."
Sheriff's investigators have said they're chasing hundreds of leads but haven't identified a suspect or a motive in the slayings. They also have said they haven't found the firearm used to kill Allen and Cutshall, youth camp counselors whose bodies were found Aug. 18 by sheriff's deputies.
Bruce is one of two men from Bodega Bay who said two detectives showed up at their homes unannounced this week to inquire about guns the men own. They said the detectives asked if they could come inside to make sure the weapons were "safe and accounted for."
Both men said they were then interviewed about the Jenner case for more than an hour. Bruce said he was asked if he had been in Jenner recently and was asked for personal details about his family and friends.
He said detectives told him they wanted the guns for ballistic testing.
He said he fears his neighbors will learn that he has the firearms, which he said were obtained legally and stored in a secure place.
"I'm not the kind of person to advertise I have guns," he said.
The other man whose guns were taken said he, too, feels like his rights were violated.
"This is the kind of stuff that makes gun owners jump up and down," said the man, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "It's like having the Wehrmacht knock on your door."
Investigators have acknowledged contacting at least one other gun owner.
Sheriff's officials confirmed at a news conference last week that they had checked on another man's weapons, but they didn't identify him or say whether that information proved useful.
Sheriff's Lt. Roger Rude wouldn't say how detectives identified the men or why they were interviewed, saying investigators want to protect the "sanctity of the investigation."
But he said detectives acted properly and that not all Sonoma County gun owners are suddenly under suspicion, though he acknowledged that more people would be contacted.
"I do not believe that we have been exploiting a database in order to check everybody in the world that has a gun," he said. "I think folks are barking up the wrong tree there."
It's a long-standing law enforcement technique to knock on doors to try to find weapons used in a crime when other evidence, such as recovered bullet fragments, points to a certain kind of gun.
That's particularly true in cases such as the Jenner homicides when other evidence apparently is lacking.
Bullets or bullet fragments found at the crime scene could help detectives determine the type of weapon used or in some cases even identify its owner.
"All guns have a different ballistic signature," said Hugh Wilson, a former Marin County sheriff's detective and an associate professor in the criminal justice department at California State University, Sacramento. "The Department of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms has a large database to check recovered rounds from a crime scene to ultimately narrow the gun (used)."
He said the fact that sheriff's detectives are contacting Sonoma County gun owners likely means they have recovered enough evidence to determine the type of weapon used to kill Allen and Cutshall.
"They're checking everyone who owns a gun like this in Sonoma County," he said. "They're going to assign detectives in the morning to follow up the leads. It's a very exhaustive process, but when you don't have a lot of other good things to go on, you've got to eliminate that."
Wilson said he and his colleagues banged on a lot of Bay Area doors in the late 1970s and early '80s while searching for the gun used by the infamous Trailside Killer.
The gun was eventually recovered - in the possession of David Carpenter, who was convicted of the killings.
"This is very labor intensive, but in a case like (Jenner) they're going to pull out all the stops," he said. "You can bet that type of thing is going on if they've got ballistics evidence, and it sounds like they do. That's lead No. 1."
He said there is nothing illegal about using gun registry information in a criminal investigation, and that detectives don't need a search warrant unless they are denied entry or a person refuses to answer questions.
The information used in such cases can be obtained through the state Department of Justice, which keeps a record of all gun purchases made through licensed dealers in California. The information can be cross-checked with criminal records and other data from background checks that must be conducted when anyone buys a firearm, said Hallye Jordan, a Justice Department spokeswoman.
She said law enforcement agencies can access this information through a variety of state and federal databases, including the Automated Firearm System, which includes records of guns that are purchased as well as those that are booked as evidence or reported lost or stolen.
The databases aren't available to the general public, she said.
"It's like having the Wehrmacht knock on your door."
Actually, it's like having the U.S. government knock on your door.
JBT's R Us.
F%$&!NG NAZI's
Ping
I particularly noted he didn't say anything about it being illegal. I told him there was a lot of stuff in my car but nothing illegal. He let it go at that.
I had a couple of guns which I was carrying legally but just didn't want to fool with discussing it etc.
Big deal. I'd bet there are some neighborhoods in Cal that have more than the entire state of Montana.
This one seems to be a particularly bad one in that it appears two totally innocent people were randomly murdered. People who live in the vicinity do need to be questioned. Just living nearby in a rural area is enough to cast a tiny bit of suspicion on you.
Now if they decided to check every gun in the state or even the region, I would be just as disturbed as you but that is not what they are doing, at least yet.
Cops do sometimes have to make innocent people undergo suspicion. There is just no way of avoiding it unless you simply don't really try and solve the crime.
LOL! What kind of response is this? I think they picked the wrong guy to push around even though he seems to be cooperating.
Clearly there evidence and investigation in this case are weak. That's why two people were contacted instead of one.
That being said, I feel for the LEOs. In cases such as this, if the perp only walked up and shot, and walked away, no robbery involved and didn't touch the victims, could mean that they have very little to go on. It would be a senseless homicide, and those can be the most difficult to crack.
In a nearby suburb, a couple of black guys (I'm white) held up a bank. One of them used a handgun similar to mine. In addition, a cop was shot and injured while responding.
The cops scoured sales records at local gun dealers, found that I had purchased a similar gun years before, and came knocking on my door.
I wasn't home, but my father was. The cop wanted to take my handgun in for testing, and bless his freedom-loving heart, my father refused to turn it over.
Two things I've learned since. If you find yourself in a similar situation, demand to speak to the cop's supervisor, who may not be aware of the fishing expedition. Also, if you do turn anything over to the cops (I might be tempted to demand a search warrent), by all means demand a receipt.
Stay safe !
Evidently with more to follow.
That being said, I feel for the LEOs. In cases such as this, if the perp only walked up and shot, and walked away, no robbery involved and didn't touch the victims, could mean that they have very little to go on.
Apparently, that is exactly what happened.
It would be a senseless homicide, and those can be the most difficult to crack.
Exactly, I think LEO's can knock on as many doors in the area as possible looking for leads and asking if anyone saw anything, but asking people for there guns with no probable cause crosses the line.
The FBI will tell you that the method is about 50/50 at best, and if pressed they will admit that the probablities of a direct match are less than 20%, unless the gun has been recovered from the crime scene. The police have one job: to collect evidence and arrest someone. In that, I insist that they "go by the book". Any information that one volunteers can and will be used against that person in a court of law. And since BT is so inaccurate, who wants to take the chance that some hung-over lab tech might be sloppy and conclude that it was your gun that was used. Make them get the warrant. Call your attorney and have him stand by during the search. If they have a warrant, I will open the safe. But all they are going to get from me is "name, rank and serial number". After that, they can talk to my lawyer.
Albeit I despise having to rent my RKBA it's the best we have going for right now. As a former deputy I am polite and treat LEO's like I want to be treated. My wallet is placed on the dash for easy access to my license and insurance, All the car windows are rolled down and the dome lights are on inside the car before the LEO can get out of his car. My hands are at the two and 10 position on the wheel. And a small digital recorder under my dash is turned "on" and my family, friends and lawyer know it's there........my insurance against a Crazy Cop per se...short of a slug to the noggin I suppose !
I strive to never give a LEO reason to stop me, or fear me.......always do the speed limit, use the cruise control, wear my seat belt and such etc etc.....
A good Man!
Damn ~ Just Damn!
The Second Amendment ~~
America's Original Homeland Security!
Be Ever Vigilant!
>>And a small digital recorder under my dash is turned "on" and my family, friends and lawyer know it's there<<
I like that idea!
I have been stopped maybe twenty times and only got a couple of tickets. I always suspected it had something to do with attitude.
I don't go quite as far as you tho. I do lower the drivers window and also do the 10-2 thing with my hands on the steering wheel. I also immediately put on my turn signal and pull over as soon as practical as soon as I see the lights.
I don't know if Georgia Troopers would have had knowledge of my concealed carry or not. As a matter of fact I was carrying legally for three different reasons. I had a permit, I don't think you even needed a permit for having it in the car, and a third reason which is personal.
Stay safe !
Something strikes me here...
We know that "ballistic signatures" are unreliable at best and that they have NEVER convicted a criminal on "ballistic signature."
Further, the article repeatedly refers to "type of gun used." Seems to me the only thing the police could have is the SIZE OF BULLET. Does my H&K 9mm spent round look different from a Beretta 9mm spent round? I don't think so.
What is "snowflaking"
Planting evidence (by LEO's), usually drugs,"snow" would be cocaine.
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