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The Youngsters at Abu Ghraib
Wall Street Journal ^ | August 17, 2004 | DOROTHY RABINOWITZ

Posted on 08/17/2004 6:03:55 AM PDT by OESY

...When the news of those pictures became public in April, Pfc. England had an explanation: She had been following orders from higher-ups.... Who the higher-ups were who had approved the group's treatment of prisoners she could not say.

This was a decidedly different explanation from the one she initially gave, according to the Army investigator who first confronted her with the photographs. Months before those were made public, investigator Paul Arthur testified at the recent Article 32 hearing, Pfc. England had told him that the photos [was] just some fooling around while on the night shift. There was no mention of orders from higher-ups. The just-following-orders defense would come later....

It was a defense instantly embraced by every antiwar, anti-administration organ in the nation. Those at the topmost levels of the military including Donald Rumsfeld and the president himself, it was argued, were in one way or another responsible for torments inflicted on the prisoners -- torments that must have been designed, or at the least suggested, by superior officers high in the chain of command. Editorial writers and other commentators professed astonishment that anyone could believe ordinary soldiers might be moved to commit acts of sadism and terrorization all on their own....

In Sen. Warner's opinion, clearly, the problem at Abu Ghraib had to do with a lot more than a lack of training and discipline from above.... Also apparently outraged by the idea that the soldiers themselves could have conceived of such behavior, Sen. Graham scoffed, "I'm not buying it." Some of those photos were "too elaborate."

...In no other period in memory than this -- even granted the exceptional political bitterness in the air -- have we seen so persistent an effort to deflect blame from the individuals actually guilty of perpetrating reprehensible acts, to others....

(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: abughraib; frederick; graham; grainer; lynndieengland; mccain; warner

1 posted on 08/17/2004 6:03:56 AM PDT by OESY
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To: OESY

"just following orders" Hmm. the Nuerenberg(sp) defense.


2 posted on 08/17/2004 6:16:02 AM PDT by camle (keep your mind open and somebody will fill it with something for you))
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To: camle

Didn't work then, won't work now.

Doesn't change the fact that we should go after the higher-ups who knew about this as well. Nail her to the wall first, nail them to the wall next.

Start with the general who was supposed to be running the place, and see where else it takes us.


3 posted on 08/17/2004 6:21:00 AM PDT by horatio
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To: horatio

And do what? Give them a lobotomy that makes them care about the soldiers?


4 posted on 08/17/2004 6:32:03 AM PDT by gr8eman (Want me to show you a little trick to take your mind off that pain?)
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To: gr8eman

No, court-martial them.

The President charged them with "winning hearts and minds." Those pictures getting out allowed the Islamist scumbags to recruit more members and gave them strength. It made our job over there tougher, and certainly led to the deaths of more soldiers.

Court-martial everyone responsible for the travesty. Those who did it, and those who ordered it.


5 posted on 08/17/2004 7:00:56 AM PDT by horatio
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To: gr8eman
How about an all expense paid vacation to Ft. Levenworth Ks.?
6 posted on 08/17/2004 7:03:10 AM PDT by Valin (Mind like a steel trap - rusty and illegal in 37 states.)
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To: Valin
Not Possible! Poor leadership is not a Court Martial offense. Anyone who really believes that the OIC's gave orders for the things the prison "guards" did does not understand how the Army works (or doesn't work)! The fact that this all came about speaks volumes for that lack of leadership. You would not see this happen in the AF or Marines, for sure. Not sure about Navy!

It may be good fodder for the Bush haters and TinFoil hatters, but butress this with what happened to the incident where the tropps were driving around in the desert at night and got ambushed and taken hostage and one should not need first-hand knowledge of how lacking the Army's leadership is to conclude the same! It's funny that no one asked who was in charge of that outfit!

7 posted on 08/17/2004 7:32:10 AM PDT by gr8eman (Want me to show you a little trick to take your mind off that pain?)
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To: gr8eman

Not Possible!
Dereliction of duty?
If memory servers, the general in charge said she didn't know this sort of thing was going on. Well it was her job to know what's going on. That's why she got the perks that come with being a general.
"To whom much is given, much is required".


8 posted on 08/17/2004 7:37:40 AM PDT by Valin (Mind like a steel trap - rusty and illegal in 37 states.)
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To: Valin
Furthermore...I smell a hint of ignorance in the air worse than my bad spelling on this thread. I can clarify that I was in Baghdad and went there with a certain Armored division and the idea that people in that situation sat down and orchestrated all of the things that transpired defies reality and common sense. Without proper guidlines and discipline Abu Grab is what you get in a foreign and hostile environment. This is not rocket science folks...neither is the fact that people will try to make the rhetorical leap that it was all orchestrated by Rumsfeld and Bush...yeah sure...they were sitting around the White House one day and being bored because they had nothing else to do they cooked up a sinister plot to put underwear on some zipper's head!

Pathetic!

9 posted on 08/17/2004 7:47:30 AM PDT by gr8eman (Want me to show you a little trick to take your mind off that pain?)
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To: gr8eman

I'll second that. The army bought into the whole "Clinton's Kinder,Gentler Army" concept and has suffered in theater as a result.

The other services - espeically the USMC didn't. They never lost sight of what militaries are for - Warfare.

COS Gen Skoomaker has relized this and is attempting to turn the ship around. I think he'll have a hard time because of a generation of senior officers who like the status quo and don't want to be held to a higher standard. (Or, in my branch's case, don't want anyone to feel slighted or their feeling hurt)

My son is 11. If he wants in to the military at 18 and things in the army don't change, he's Marine Corps bound.


10 posted on 08/17/2004 8:46:58 AM PDT by military cop (military cop)
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To: Valin
"If memory servers, the general in charge said she didn't know this sort of thing was going on. Well it was her job to know what's going on. That's why she got the perks that come with being a general."

She was in charge of all the prisons and was not present at Abu Ghraib. A colonel in Army intelligence was there and was in charge of that prison. This is why so many people thought it strange that the only leader to get in trouble for the incident was the MP general who was not present, when it was the Army intelligence colonel who should have known what was happening because he was present.
11 posted on 08/17/2004 9:59:43 AM PDT by monday
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To: OESY
I have children who are now just past their teens. These kids document every silly thing they do with photos. In fact, the need for a photo sometimes instigates some of the activity.

It was this way when I was their age too.

Why is it so hard to believe that these incidents were HiJinks by young soldiers ?

12 posted on 08/17/2004 1:10:26 PM PDT by happygrl
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To: monday

She was in charge of all the prisons and was not present at Abu Ghraib. A colonel in Army intelligence was there and was in charge of that prison.

You're right.
I just hope we don't see a whitewash of this. Thst would be yet one more gift to the terrorists.


13 posted on 08/17/2004 10:03:40 PM PDT by Valin (Mind like a steel trap - rusty and illegal in 37 states.)
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To: OESY
Also apparently outraged by the idea that the soldiers themselves could have conceived of such behavior, Sen. Graham scoffed, "I'm not buying it." Some of those photos were "too elaborate."

Senator Graham is just trying to cover up his embarrassment at the investigation showing this didn't go beyond the prison, after he (Graham)claimed this scandal went all the way up the chain of command, immediately, with absolutely NO proof to back up his accusations.

He played right into the enemy's hands by promoting the idea that this scandal stained the reputation of the entire US military. Now that he's been proven wrong, it seems he's not willing to apologize. Shame on him.

14 posted on 08/19/2004 5:50:30 PM PDT by Jorge
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To: horatio

The higher up this goes, the more it hurts the President. Nail everybody on site, let it end there.


15 posted on 08/23/2004 1:26:19 PM PDT by jojodamofo
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To: jojodamofo

If he authorized it, then it should hurt him. But we all know that isn't the case.

Follow the trail, nail everyone responsible. I don't believe in covering-up the responsibility of people off-site. Let the guilty pay, or we give the libs' whining credibility.


16 posted on 08/30/2004 7:48:02 AM PDT by horatio
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