Sandy Berger, and TWA 800

7/23/04 | Philosofy123

[philosofy123]

I know it is late afternoon on Friday for me to get a good response to this posting, however, I am constantly thinking that the US government should come clean, and admit that they lied to us about the shoulder to air missile that hit the TWA flight 800 in the NYC harbor.

I do appreciate that they lied to protect the flying public from panicking, however, after 9/11, and after the wall to wall public education regarding fanatic Islam, it would not be harmful to day to admit the truth.

Please let me know your views?

[Darksheare]

At least I'll admit it's speculation.
Unlike you.

[Non-Sequitur]

Ah, but I've actually served around naval ordinance. I've served in the Navy, been stationed on DDGs and FFGs, witnessed missile shoots from other ships, participated in live fire exercises on my own. I've seen Sparrow missiles shot off, Tartars, Standards, even watched them shoot of an old Talks during a summer cruise in my ROTC days. And based on that I can safely say that none of the witness reports that I have read bears any resemblance to the missile shoots that I've seen. I've spent too much time in these discussion far more often than I should have, but I do it because after having served my country's Navy for 23 years I cannot sit idly by and see the Navy attacked and torn down by people who haven't the faintest idea of what they are talking about, or who claim to speak authoritatively on subjects that they are ignorant about.

I have no idea what brought down TWA800. But it wasn't a Navy missile.

[Darksheare]

I was Army Artillery and got to read the dash 10's on the Stinger.
Also had the fun of gettig burned because some yutzoid decided that my back was where the million candle power at least light needed to be.
(He got butt-stroked for his trouble.)

OKers.
I suspect that a terror boy in a boat or a freaky foot bomber like Richard Ried is the culrpit.
But, with the way the investigation was handled, and the dozens (hundred) of theories that came out afterwards, I don't think we'll ever conclusively know.

You also just answered my question about the likelyhood of a Navy origin shootdown.
:-) thanks!
(It was my unit that got to do weapons qual with the M-16 sans targets to shoot. What a fun day that was.)

[Liberty Wins]

TWA flight 800 destroyed July 17, 1998, on the anniversary of the Baath Party coup which overthrew Iraqi regime.

"There is NO such thing as a coincidence." . . . . James Angleton, CIA Chief of Counterintelligence

[dread78645]

Flight 800 is ordered to descend several thousand feet, ...

The flight was climbing through 10,000 ft when they switched from JFK departure control to Boston Control. At 11,000 ft they got ordered to climb to 19,000, then 35 second later to hold at 13,000.

2024: 41.7 	RDO-2	 New York center TWA's lifeguard eight hundred heavy eight thousand two hundred climbing one one thousand.
2024: 48 	CTR	TWA eight hundred Boston center roger climb and maintainone three thousand.
2024: 53.4 	RDO-2	TWA's eight hundred heavy climb and maintainone three thousand.
2024: 57 	CAM-1	climb and maintainone three thousand.
2025: 31 	CTR	TWA eight hundred what's your rate of climb?
2025: 34.5 	RDO-2	TWA's eight hundred heavy ah about two thousand feet a minute here until accelerating out of ten thousand.
2025: 41 	CTR	roger sir climb and maintainflight level one niner zero and expedite through fifteen.
2025: 47.1 	RDO-2	TWA's eight hundred heavy climb and maintainone niner zero and expedite through one five thousand.
2025: 53 	CAM-1	climb to one nine zero expedite through one five thousand.
...

2026: 24 	CTR	 TWA eight hundred amend the altitude maintainah one three thousand thirteen thousand only for now.
2026: 29 	CAM-1	thirteen thousand.
2026: 30.3 	RDO-2	TWA's eight hundred heavy okay stop climb at one three thousand.
2026: 35 	CAM-1	stop climb at one three thousand. 
...
2030: 15 	CTR	 TWA eight hundred climb and maintainone five thousand.
2030: 18 	CAM-1	climb thrust.
2030: 19.2 	RDO-2	TWA's eight hundred heavy climb and maintainone five thousand leaving one three thousand.
...

[Darksheare]

"Yeah, right.
I'll take the weord of a couple of highly skilled air navigators over some bum on the beach any day ..."

And accident investigators should then take the word of cops over your word and witness reports any day.

[philosofy123]

The building was prevented from futher investigation and the rubble was removed quickly.

This action by itself was a good indication of coverup.

[philosofy123]

Thanks for the website info.

[philosofy123]

Clinton knows where other "skeletons" are buried, and will bring down many others if he is brought down. That's not a guess. He promised as much during the impeachment time.

That is a shame for a country that prides itself on being an open society.

[PGalt]

bump

[philosofy123]

The popular culture keeps painting any and all conspiracy theorists as nutcases, which is a good cover up for "REAL" conspiracies, disinformation, misinformation, and lies. No one dares to say conspiracy lest he be called a nutcase!

[philosofy123]

The popular culture keeps painting any and all conspiracy theorists as nutcases, which is a good cover up for "REAL" conspiracies, disinformation, misinformation, and lies. No one dares to say conspiracy lest he be called a nutcase!

[restornu]

How could this be if he was the enemie?

TIMOTHY McVEIGH died as a SOLDIER

[restornu]

Yikes! Did you read this?

Following his 1995 arrest for bombing the Oklahoma City federal building, Timothy McVeigh spent six years in prison, a stay that ended with his June 11, 2001 or 6/11 execution at the Terre Haute penitentiary.

Sept 11, 2001 or 9/11

[Bryan24]

When everything is said and done, a few facts remain and are without dispute.

1. Over 700 witnesses were interviewed. Over 100 of these witnesses, WITHOUT TALKING TOO EACH OTHER OR HEARING EACH OTHER'S TESTIMONY, gave investigators almost identical descriptions of a surface to air missle launch.

2. The NTSB/CIA "zoom-climb" theory championed by the government is physically impossible. This was done to match the equally impossible "exploding empty center fuel tank". One thing that does NOT change is the law of physics.

A 747 with a missing nose section will stall in a few seconds as the center of gravity changes, the tail drops quickly and the wings stall.

What the government claims is physically impossible and they know it.

3. JP-4 (Jet fuel used by airlines) fuel/fumes will not ignite until it reaches 175 degrees+. The tempurature of the fuel in TWA800 wold have barely reached 100 degrees. Tests of other 747s show that the fuel in the CFT just does not get hot enough to ignite with a spark. Besides, once the airplane left the ground, the skin, and fuel tank, would have immediately begun cooling down.

4. Did I say spark? Boeing Engineers have found NO PLAUSIBLE SOURCE for a high energy spark to get shorted onto the fuel monitor in the CFT.

I know it is only my opinion, but the four reasons above are enough for me to forever disbelieve the government's explaination of what happened to TWA800.

[Rokke]

Bryan, your facts aren't accurate or even facts.

1. While over 700 witnesses were interviewed, almost none of their descriptions were identical and the differences were significant. More importantly, almost none accurately described something resembling a surface to air missile launch. Many described a flare, but differences between a flare launch and a SAM launch are too numerous to list.

2. The "zoom-climb" theory as described by the NTSB is not physically impossible. The NTSB calculates the aircraft climbed about 1200 feet in 15 seconds after the forward fuselage departed the aircraft. Unless you believe the wings immediately stalled after the explosion, you must agree that they were creating lift for some period after the explosion. A climb rate of 4800fpm is easily within the capability of a 747. Even one with its forward nose section missing experiencing a dramatic pitch-up due to a massive shift of CG.

3. According to Boeing, the JP-4 fuel vapors in TWA 800 center wing tank would be explosive at about 113F. They estimate the temperature of those fumes at the time of the explosion was 130-140F. To quote them... "well within the envelope to be considered flammable."

4. Finally, an undisputed fact. That puts you at 25%.

[Rokke]

"From underneath, the heat source that would be 'better seen' by a seeker head would be the forward illume lights."

No. Not even close. And while the actual lightbulbs may be hot, they are covered by a plastic lens in the wingroot to protect them and maintain the aerodynamics of the wing. That same plastic lens is cooled by a constant blast of freezing air flowing over it at over 300kias. Contrast that with the engine exhaust of 4 large turbofan engines expelling a huge plume of gas at temperatures of over 1000F. An IR missile locks on to the greatest heat source. A landing light next to 4 turbofans at full thrust would look like a candle next to the Sun.

[Darksheare]

"A landing light next to 4 turbofans at full thrust would look like a candle next to the Sun."

Only if the turbofans aren't masked by their own cowling.

[Rokke]

"Only if the turbofans aren't masked by their own cowling."

IR missiles are plume trackers. They lock onto the exhaust plume of an aircraft and guide to that until just prior to impact. You could completely mask the actual engines, but the exhaust plume would obviously "visible" to an IR missile.

[Bryan24]

1. You obviously didn't read the witness reports very closely.

2. The "zoom-climb" is impossible without a nose. The center-of-gravity would shift instantly WAAAY aft in the plane. The new "nose" of the aircraft would then act like a parachute. The plane would instantly (within mere seconds) drop the tail. But, once the wings got to the stall point, the tail would continue to drop. I've read the reports from aviation people. Even Boeing said the "zoom-climb" is not supported by ANY of their data.

3. http://twa800.com/pages/fuel.htm

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