Posted on 07/23/2004 12:03:52 PM PDT by philosofy123
I think he was there looking for Vince's car keys and the last piece of the "suicide" note.
Hell of a shot, wasn't it? </sarcasm>
Leverage............. Leveragemay be, but I hope not, the reason they will allow Berger to stay out of jail. Leverage.......... politics is a filthy game.
197 - "That site says the Navy was 180 MILES AWAY at the time. Hardly in a position for eye witness accounts seeing it come up from the surface..."
Look a bit more. There are several different stories on that, initially, the Navy was immediately underneath the flight path, and doing exercises; then suddenly the Navy was 180 miles away (according to xlinton announcement), and then that was modified again - that there were a few ships still left in the area.
There was a massive government coverup, like OKC, only far worse because they had so many eyewitnesses, and had to fabricate and supress evidence. Even put one set of reporters in jail.
If you check out the radar sites info, there are two types of info, all of which have been secreted by the government - those for shipping and those for aircraft.
Scan through the reports and you will find more.
When traveling for business, I drive anywhere that I can reach in one day (about 18 hours) on the road.
When traveling for pleasure, I drive anywhere that has a road going to it from my home.
If the Navy ship was right under the flight path that would place it 10 miles or so off shore. The RIM-67 Standard missile is a hair over 26 feel long and looks like a flaming telephone pole in flight, especially at night. Launching one generates a tremendous burst of flame and a huge amount of smoke. Don't you think someone would have seen that?
Ah, safe from errant naval missiles. Good plan.
206 - "Don't you think someone would have seen that?"
There were about 200 eyewitness reports, from land, sea, plane, etc. Pilots, passengers, drivers, fishermen, etc. That's why the coverup was so hard. That's why the FBI took over the investigation, and buried these reports, and the normal investigators were not allowed to investigate.
Look up some of the stories in the link I posted.
No, I don't think so. They say they saw something, described variously as a "flare," or a rising point of light, rise up and end in a ball of flame. The nearest witness, to the best of my knowledge, was ten miles away. No one could have identified what they saw as a missile. And my original observation still stands: a missile with sufficient range to have taken down the airplane would have lit up the horizon. If the witnesses had seen that kind of event, along with a rising point of light, I might be inclined to think the object was a missile. But that isn't the case.
Here is just one of the reports on the site:
"CRASH DAMAGE ANALYSIS
Witness accounts uniformly indicate that the “rocket” seen to impact TWA 800 was launched close to shore, approximately 2 to 5 miles offshore. As a pilot in the area, Sven Faret, said, the “rocket” was launched “near the shoreline or in the water.” As TWA 800 was traveling in a northeast direction parallel to Long Island about 10 miles offshore, this would indicate a left, or port, side strike.
As we can see below, the deformation to the finished airframe reconstruction is consistent with witness accounts... "
And here is the link to that individual whole story (one of the many posted on the website):
http://users.erols.com/igoddard/crash.htm
I've seen odd and stupid stuff diue to training funds being cut.
Weapons qualification without targets to shoot for example.
Understood.
Thanks.
http://members.aol.com/bardonia2/part13.htm
July 25, 1999 The San Jose Mercury News Author: Scott Holleran
Conspiracy theories attract some pretty loopy people for good reasons- Most of them are based on mere coincidences or arbitrary assertions---in other words, pure bunk. But this is the tale of how I began to believe in one. Three years ago, I was scheduled to meet my parents for the beginning of a long planned European vacation. It turned out to be the start of my journey into one of the great aviation mysteries of our time - the crash of TWA Flight 800.
The TWA terminal at New York's JFK Airport that July 17 was bustling with summer travelers, with whom I waited until my departure. My parents missed our connection, but I was assured by the TWA flight crew that they would board the next available flight, Flight 800. When I arrived in Europe hours later, I exited the aircraft through the plastic vestibule, where an airport official met me with a smile and politely asked where my parents were. I told him they'd missed the flight. He turned white. "Your parents are gone," he whispered as his hand moved to cover his mouth. He explained that their airplane had exploded over the Atlantic Ocean. He muttered one phrase in broken English: "The FBI is investigating."
I learned that the airport official was wrong. Mom and Dad were alive--- they had missed that flight as well---and I was elated to embrace them. We traveled through Europe with a renewed sense of life. It wasn't until we boarded the flight back to the United States that I began to question the government's investigation of the crash, when members of the TWA flight crew told me that flight 800 had been shot down by a Navy missile. This was weeks before an anonymous e-mail message made similar claims, and months before journalist and former Kennedy press secretary Pierre Salinger claimed that a French intelligence source had informed him of a conspiracy by the U.S. government to cover up a military mishap.
"Friendly fire," let alone a cover-up, seemed preposterous to me. As a journalist, I am inclined to be skeptical of unusual claims. I don't read horoscopes, and I think Shirley MacLaine is nuts. As I reviewed early news reports and attempted to match them with later stories, however, several discrepancies emerged.
First, authorities issued several conflicting statements. Second, the anonymous e-mail---though it contained plenty of false information---disclosed that a Navy aircraft had been involved in exercises nearby at the time of the crash. Much later, the FBI acknowledged that fact. Third, I'd noticed that investigators wanted to have it both ways. The National Transportation Safety Board's investigation was proceeding under the direction of the FBI, which was involved on the grounds that a crime might have caused the crash---but FBI Assistant Director James Kallstrom would neither confirm nor deny the existence of criminal evidence.
During the months following the crash, Salinger's amateurish presentations of the missile theory captured most of the media attention--- and ridicule. But the number of credible skeptics grew, and the FBI and NTSB developed an odd, weary demeanor. Investigators' pursuit of an intelligible cause diminished in proportion to the rise in missile claims. The FBI seized an amateur videotape taken by retired commercial pilot Richard Russell, which he said showed radar images of TWA 800 being downed by a missile. Charges were filed against freelance writer and investigator James Sanders, who had obtained a piece of seat fabric that he said contained rocket residue. I wondered why the FBI had bothered with such supposedly meaningless claims---and, once they had, why they wouldn't release the video and seat fabric for independent evaluation.
A mysterious radar track
Then the FBI's Kallstrom testified before Congress that his agency had tracked "all air and waterborne vessels in the area and conducted appropriate interviews. Yet the FBI did not dispute a report by Robert Davey, a Village Voice reporter, that radar in the area picked up four unidentified tracks. One of these, according to the NTSB was within three nautical miles of Flight 800 when it exploded. It's pattern was consistent with a surface vessel moving at 30 knots, the NTSB said. Perhaps most alarming was that the mysterious boat kept moving out to sea, even after the explosion. "He not only doesn't turn to render assistance, he runs," said naval Cmdr. William Donaldson, who believes a navy missile downed the plane. (Note from website author: Cmdr. Donaldson believes a missile(s) downed the plane but believes this was a terrorist attack)
In early 1998, retired Adm. Thomas Moorer--- former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff--- added his name to the list of those who believe a missile destroyed the plane. Basing his judgment partly on an analysis of the flight-recorder data, Moorer and other former Navy brass expressed grave concerns. "All the evidence," Moorer said at a press conference, "would point to a missile." Months later, a former member of the NTSB, Vernon Grose, also publicly cast doubt on the investigation after seeing the flight recorder analysis. Last week, one of the investigation's own military engineers, a specialist in missile technology, told the Village Voice's Davey that he believes the plane was probably shot down by a missile and that the government is covering up the truth. The Voice gave the source anonymity because he feared losing his job. The entire investigation has seemed like an "X-Files" episode.
Streak of light
And there's more. At the time of the crash, 270 eyewitnesses across Long Island reported seeing a streak of light. After the FBI suspended the criminal investigation last year, Kallstrom, in an unprecedented move, asked the CIA to produce a videotaped explanation of the eyewitness accounts that specifically refutes the missile theory. At least one military pilot who saw the crash is unconvinced. National Guard helicopter pilot Frederick Meyer--- one of the closest eye-witnesses, who reported falling debris---rejects the CIA's animated recreation. Meyer described the event as "an ordnance explosion". And he ought to know what one looks like; the veteran pilot dodged missiles in Vietnam. Nearly 100 of the eyewitnesses said streak of light originated from the earth's surface.
A puzzling pattern
In researching the crash and investigation over the last two years, I've spoken with eyewitnesses, victims' families, conspiracy theorists, investigation officials and fellow journalists. I have reached the conclusion that these are not merely arbitrary anomalies emanation from a bunch of kooks. They add up to a preponderance of puzzling, unsubstantiated evidence that cries out for closer scrutiny and begs deeper questions: On what grounds was the FBI's criminal inquiry suspended---but not closed? Have the unidentified radar tracks--- especially the 30 knot track---been thoroughly investigated? If so, why haven't we been told anything about them? Kallstrom and others have focused on Salinger as themissile theory's straw man, denouncing him repeatedly and implying that TWA 800 conspiracy theorists are dominated by irresponsible, wild-eyed Internet users. Hardly. Most TWA 800 conspiracy theorists I've met are retired professionals with years of expertise in their fields of endeavor from journalism and education to engineering and aviation.
Some victims' families skepticism would reopen a wound that is just beginning to heal. But proper scientific inquiry is not passive acceptance of ignorance; it is the relentless pursuit of truth. And the truth is what investigators---despite highly desirable conditions for an aviation disaster inquiry---have completely failed to uncover. Instead, they have asserted repeatedly that the cause may be "unknowable," implying that TWA 800 is doomed to being an unsolved mystery. It is not. I don't claim to know what happened to the 747. But I do know that the truth matters. It mattered to me and my parents July 17, 1996. It mattered more to the 230 crash victims. And it ought to matter to the American public, which has spent well over $30 million for an utterly unacceptable outcome: shoulder-shrugging, ' not answers, in response toserious questions about the worst aviation disaster in U.S. history.
Scott Holleran sholleran@earthlink.net is a freelance writer in Southern California. He wrote this article for [The San Jose Mercury News] Perspective.
Isn't there another issue with the basic MANPAD SAM/Stinger theory. Does one of these missiles have sufficient explosive power to knock down a "clean" 747 under full power?
They're heat-seekers, are they not? And, while they might take out one of the engines, that wouldn't take a 747 out of the air.
Seems to me that, if a missile was involved, it was something larger and more potent than a Stinger. Which, of course, would also give it the capability to reach a higher altitude...
From underneath, the missile seaker would see not the engines but the forward illumination lights.
My advice: GET OVER IT.
Competent pireps (pilot reports) from MANY angles saw *no* missile ...
Something the conspiracy cadre who play quite loosely with the 'facts' *WON'T* tell you about.
WHO do you think was behind TWA800 in that flight corridor that night?
RIGHT, several more sets of pilot's eyes (the air was CRAWLING with planes and multiple sets of pilot's eyes that evening - and PILOT'S make MUCH better witnesses than half-inebriated souls on the surface of the earth) ...
So, GET OVER IT.
About 290 of those eyewitnesses also reported seeing a ?flare-like object? rising from the surface of the ocean toward Flight 800, and converge with it, immediately prior to the explosion. Some of those eyewitnesses reported seeing two such objects. But, the FBI special agent in charge of the investigation later said, ?There is no missile, there never was a missile, and there?s never going to be a missile.?I REST MY CASE, the FBI and other governmental organizations were all ordered to lie!!!!!
290? Overblown and not reflective of 'the facts'.
Table 1: Number of witnesses by situation and observation. -------------------------------------------------------- Witness situation Item Land Sea Air Subtotal Unknown Total -------------------------------------------------------- Sight 420 195 37 652 18 670 Sound 167 48 0 215 24 239 Streak 172 78 6 256 2 258 Fireball (FB) 365 182 37 584 15 599 FB Split 122 61 16 199 1 200 FB Water 122 69 21 212 5 217 Total 460 202 37 --- 37 736Pilot witnessesMost of the airborne witnesses were pilots and experienced observers of aircraft. Consequently, they are believed to be especially trained, qualified, and credible observers.
These observers can be especially useful because their statements to air traffic controllers are often recorded, and because radar data can be used to determine their position and altitude at a given time.
Streak of lightYeah, right.And there's more. At the time of the crash, 270 eyewitnesses across Long Island reported seeing a streak of light.
I'll take the weord of a couple of highly skilled air navigators over some bum on the beach any day ...
Where's YOUR book - ya got one coming out too?
(Prime these suckers hard enougbh on 'the boards' and you, too, can 'cash in' ...)
JUST follow the usual 'conspiratorial recipe' and AVOID the responsible observations made by flight crews, the material evidence that exculpates anything BUT an airframe/component failure on an OLD high flight-time aircraft ...
But the missile or a shoe bomber is more likely than the NTSB's miracle CWT..
Speaking from a) any particular knowledge on the subject - or b) just 'throwing' that stuff out there?
I say b).
But, I could be wrong. How about a brief synopsis of just HOW MANY aircraft have experienced fuel tank explosions in the last two decades or so?
(THERE used to be a time when the S/N ratio on FR was as a helluvalot HIGHER - what the hell is going on these days?)
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