Posted on 07/09/2004 9:50:27 AM PDT by mandingo republican
Did anyone here this. Incredible and a breath of fresh air! There was a group of cute Christian girls outside the Fox studios waving signs that said "Jesus Love You!"
When the segment went inside to continue the news, Brian Kilmeade said something to the extent that it is great to hear that JESUS loves you.
This would of never happened on the commie networks. Can you imagine a Baal worshipping abortion rights loving Katie Kouric saying something like this on the Today Show?
I see none of that from you on this thread, however. It appears Gill has made some convincing arguments that are undisputed at this point.
Are you up to the challenge, or are you willing to settle for merely making claims without backing them up?
I think one or two verses is fine, but when someone posts entire chapters, well, that is not only an agenda waiting to happen, but it indicates someone is not about his Master's business, cause he has way too much time on his hands.
chapters?
On the other hand.....
it is also written in Luke ch 9 that when some mocked Jesus and the apostles asked him "Should we command that fire come down from Heaven and consume them?" That (v55) Jesus rebuked them and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of"
Even as it is written in the OT (Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth" it is confirmed in the New, where in 1 Timothy 2:4 it describes God as One "who desires all men to be saved and to come the the knowledge of the truth."
This is the One who declares in Ezekiel 18:23 "Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord God ' I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather thatn the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'"
This then explains the attitude of heaven when Jesus taught in Luke 15:7 "there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous who need no repentence."
The Bible teaches that condemnation was not the ultimate purpose of the law, but rather to show man that he needed to trust in God rather than self-effort. Romans 11:32 states that".God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all."
C.S. Lewis, Dr. Hugh Ross, and others have postulated that even the torments of Hell are not so great as the torments that the eternal unsaved might inflict on others were they granted freedom. The fires and chains of Hell are like cages and electric fences for mad dogs. Punishing the dog is not even the point.
A heresy is often a truth taken to untrue extremes. You may be right about the character of God, but I think you are taking only one part of His richer-than-man nature and presenting it as the whole thing. The overall effect of this is to present a false picture of who God is.
I hope you are wrong, or at least unbalanced, about who God is. I am not attacted to the picture of Him you paint, which shows His sovereignty and wrath, but not mercy and Love. Since the Bible teaches that "God is Love" I cannot help but come to the conclusion that you are de-emphasizing precisley that thing which His Word emphasizes as His fundamental composition. Even His wrath must be but a facet of His love.
I would caution you to rightly Divine the Word of Truth and quit misrepresenting God by holding up a faucet of His nature over the Core of His nature. Return to balance. I for one will be glad when He revenges Himself on His enemies- but I am not sure He will.
Love the sinner, hate the sin.
To be honest, I don't see that it would do any good. When someone posts in big huge letters, "Mourn God may Hate You!" they worship a radically different God than I, one more appropriately named "Allah."
But, since you asked and since I'm now in a position to go into some detail, I'll see if I can better present my view before I have to run off again.
The Bible is very clear that God does love everyone and does offer salvation to everyone. Consider His love: Christ said the two greatest commandments were first to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and the second is to love your neighbor as yourself (Mt. 22:37-40). He further defined "neighbor" to include even your bitter enemies, as the Jews were to the Samaritans (see Mt. 5:43-48, Lk. 10:25-37). Are we to suppose that God holds us to a higher standard than He holds Himself?
Let's also be clear that God's call for repentance is universal. That is, He calls everyone to repentence, not just "the elect." Per Jn. 3:16 again, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotton Son that whosoever would believe in Him would not perish but have eternal life."
The word translated "world" here (kosmos) is the same used of the universal planet earth in every other instance that John pens it. For example, He said to His brothers, "The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil" (Jn. 7:7). "If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you" (Jn. 15:19). There is absolutely no justification to reduce the kosmos to meaning only the elect.
If God does not truly call everyone to Himself, then Christ's words are a mockery and a lie: "Come to Me all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Mt. 11:28). And as Isaiah prophesyed, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all" (53:6). The same "all" who sinned, which clearly includes every man, woman, and child on the planet, are the same "all" that Christ died to redeem.
Of course, while Christ died (potentially) for everyone, and would that everyone would come to Him and receive His forgiveness, not everyone does. But that's not because God created them to hate and enjoys casting them into hell, but because they have refused to turn to Him (see Rom. 10:8-13). God made us freewilled creatures; He calls us, but we can freely choose to resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51).
How then do we understand those verses that say that God "hates" sinners? In Hebrew thought, "hate" (sane) was not simply maliciousness, but to love less, or reject. For example, Isaac "hated" Leah (Gen. 29:31)--it wasn't that he wished her harm, but that he loved her less and rejected her in favor of his beloved Rachel. In the same way, God loves the nation of Esau (Edom) less than He loved Jacob (Israel) in Mal. 1:2-3, and He rejects the sinner. He rejected even Christ on the Cross when He became sin for us (2 Cor. 5:21), which is why Christ cried out, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" in the moment of judgment.
I have to run, so I'll have to cut my points short. Ultimately it comes down to this: If Calvinism rightly represents God, then He is a cosmic tyrant who punishes men for the sins that He makes them do, like a father who cuts off his son's legs and then whips him for not being able to run. Truly then, Jesus does not love the little children--He only loves a small fraction of them, and we should all be singing my sarcastic rendition of that childhood song instead of the rightful version that we all learned.
Conversely, if a balanced soteriology properly represents God, then He loves us as much as He commands us to love each other, and we are free moral agents and responsible for our decisions. Only if we are responsible for decisions is He truly just in condemning those who choose to continue in their sins and truly merciful in pardoning the redeemed.
Darth Gill: Of course, we do not know who the elect are. The wicked only receive temporal goodness for the sake of God's people. Remember, God is using this common bounty and their rejection of His goodness and His gospel to build up His wrath upon these sinners.
Even as it is written in the OT (Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth" it is confirmed in the New, where in 1 Timothy 2:4 it describes God as One "who desires all men to be saved and to come the the knowledge of the truth."
Darth Gill: Sophmoric. Isaiah 45:22 - Christ has his people scattered all over the earth. They will be turned, there is no doubt about that. I don't see universalism in this passage.
And 1 Tim 2:4, the "all men" are all of His people from every tribe tongue and nation. You must use context. Besides, God always gets what He desires. If He desired the salvation of all men universally as you say, well, they would be! Who are you to declare God is impotent and dependent upon man to bestow the blessings of Salvation?
This is the One who declares in Ezekiel 18:23 "Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord God ' I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather thatn the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'"
Darth Gill: God does take pleasure in the death of the wicked because it is a fulfillment of HIs will. The death of the wicked is a strange work for Him, but nevertheless, it is his pleasure, for the Lord does as He pleases (see above). This is just saying that God takes more pleasure in the conversion of sinners.
This then explains the attitude of heaven when Jesus taught in Luke 15:7 "there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous who need no repentence."
Yep, of course! I don't see how this proves your point. God delights and LOVES when His children come home.
The Bible teaches that condemnation was not the ultimate purpose of the law, but rather to show man that he needed to trust in God rather than self-effort. Romans 11:32 states that".God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all."
Huh? The Bible says clearly that the Law was given as a CURSE! Heb 8:13; Luke 22:20. Further, Romans 11:32 is speaking of all of God's People, His elect. Just look at Gal. 3:22.
C.S. Lewis, Dr. Hugh Ross, and others have postulated that even the torments of Hell are not so great as the torments that the eternal unsaved might inflict on others were they granted freedom. The fires and chains of Hell are like cages and electric fences for mad dogs. Punishing the dog is not even the point.
I don't care what C.S. Lewis thinks.. He was a lost man when he wrote all those books. I don't know if he was brought to faith, but from all appearances, he's probably in hell experiencing eternal torment as we speak.
A heresy is often a truth taken to untrue extremes. You may be right about the character of God, but I think you are taking only one part of His richer-than-man nature and presenting it as the whole thing. The overall effect of this is to present a false picture of who God is.
I believe God is very loving! He Loves His People. God's LOVE must only be found in Christ. Christ is the central theme of all of Scripture. God's love to His people is ETERNAL and UNMEASURABLE. DOn't accuse me of teaching God does not love. His love is shed abroad in my heart day after day. You however, are the one guilty of taking this theme and DESECRATING and PROFANING it by giving it out to those who have been ordained unto condemnation. Can you imagine a wife hearing from her husband - "I love you, but I love all these other women too and even desire to marry them, but I love you just specially." Gag me with a spoon, because that is EXACTLY what you are teaching. You are teaching that God loves men after He's sent them to hell. Oh poor God, what is He to do? You've made Him into an IDOL after your imagination. You are the heretic my friend. REPENT!
I hope you are wrong, or at least unbalanced, about who God is. I am not attacted to the picture of Him you paint, which shows His sovereignty and wrath, but not mercy and Love.
Darth Gill: Of course you're not attracted to the picture I bring. However, you are misrepresenting me. God is full of mercy and love - I never denied that. I limit it to where SCRIPTURE limits it just as YOU limit God's hate to where Scripture limits it. I do not proclaim universal hatred, but you proclaim universal love.
Fox News & Fox & Friends are great.
1 Timothy 2:4 "...God who desires all men to be saved and to come the the knowledge of the truth."
Darth Gill: "I dont see universalism in this passage"..."And 1 Tim 2:4, the "all men" are all of His people from every tribe tongue and nation. You must use context.
Ahban: "All men" seems to mean "All men" without any of the qualifiers that you want to shoehorn into God's Word.
Darth: Besides, God always gets what He desires. If He desired the salvation of all men universally as you say, well, they would be! Who are you to declare God is impotent and dependent upon man to bestow the blessings of Salvation?"
Ahban: God does get what He desires in the long run, even though His desire includes giving us the freedom to violate His will in the short term. Did God "desire" that David commit adultery with Bathsheba and murder her husband? And it is not ME saying this. Jesus (to give just one example) said in Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem O Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to help her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."
If God gets what He wills no matter what we do or say then why would Jesus tell us to pray "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on Earth, as it is in Heaven"?
I agree that Fox and Friends and FNC are great. Last year they were doing call-ins and a lady called in and said she was praying for the soldiers. The show's host was named David (I think) and he said,"Yes pray that the Lord will watch over them". I loved it. You won't hear this on CNN.
Aren't you glad someone told you that you were of the chosen few.
"I agree that Fox and Friends and FNC are great. Last year they were doing call-ins and a lady called in and said she was praying for the soldiers. The show's host was named David (I think) and he said,"Yes pray that the Lord will watch over them". I loved it. You won't hear this on CNN."
This, of course, is at least part of the explanation for why some hate Fox News so vociferously. It's the same reason that so many hate our President and other people who won't hide their faith. I think that Fox News is willing to let their newscasters be themselves and express themselves without fear of being fired, and that freedom allows them to do the great work that they do.
Marked to read later.
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