Posted on 06/15/2004 2:12:56 PM PDT by Fifthmark
""Protestantism is a damnable lie, a host of errors forced upon the world in contradiction to "one Faith" preserved by the Holy Catholic Church."--posted by Fifthmark
The first "Index of Forbidden Books", banned for their heretical or ideologically dangerous content, was drawn up by order of Pope Paul IV and published in 1559 by the Sacred Congregation of the Roman Inquisition. The Sacred Inquisition acting as the zealous guardians of the Faith, executed their office with severity. Intellectuals were pursued vigorously for their acceptance of Protestant doctrines, or for heretic ideas. The most famous banned author is undoubtedly Galileo (1633). The objective of the lists were to protect the orthodoxy and ward of significant challenges to the teachings of the canonical texts. With the invention of the printing press in Europe in the middle of the 15th Century, the problem of control increased. As more books were written, copied and increasingly widely disseminated, subversive and heretical ideas were spread beyond control. But also printers and booksellers faced the same dangers of persecution. In the late 16th century, a great number of Dutch printers chose to flee to Switzerland and Germany after a special Congregation of the Index was established.Source: The Index of Forbidden Books.
YOU, FM, attempted to defend and excuse the crime against humanity that was the Inquisition.
I wonder if you even bothered to read the article or if you just stormed in here with preconceived notions and lashed out at the nearest Catholic poster. The Inquisition is easy to defend if you understand the existence of One True Religion and the life of grace. Profession of heresy against the teaching of the Church destroys that life of grace and places you at enmity with God. The Church exists to save souls and therefore resorted to tribunals to root out those spreading heresy for the good of souls. The punishment was exacted by the State because it saw its end as consonant with that of the Church. A portion of the article bears repeating:
"Obviously, the vision of the world which underlies the logic of the Inquisition rests upon the principle of the objective reality of truth and error, on the certitude of the Catholic faith, and on the belief in eternal damnation. These ideas are quite simply incapable of being assimilated by modern minds steeped in relativism. Indeed, a relativist is incapable of understanding the phenomenon of the Inquisition. He will be scandalized by the barbarity of the past ages and by the obscurantism of the Church; he will be satisfied to make judgments inappropriate to the times being judged."
YOU, FM, are the one who called for America to be a religious dictatorship.
You have your preferences; I have mine. I want the re-establishment of Christendom; you want a licentious society restrained by political solutions.
YOU, FM, are the one who "damned" an entire sect of Christianity to Hell.
I didn't (and can't) damn anyone; I merely pointed to a system of beliefs that contradicts those taught by Christ and drew the obvious conclusion. God will judge; I'm just a voice crying in the wilderness.
YOU, FM, claimed the SOLE "truth" of the universe for your OWN religion.
Exclusivist, triumphalist, and intolerant - guilty on all three counts. But Catholicism is not my religion - it is God's and exists for all those who seek Him.
Myself and others rightfully called you on that, questioned it, and denounced the hateful, bigoted, and anti-American statements you and other fanatics made.
If what I perceive as the truth is "hateful" and "bigoted," then so be it. Concerning "anti-Americanism": In the pluralist world that you live in, am I not allowed to have my own opinion and disagree with the current Administration?
You, however, are so far gone that you are unable to even see why your insane rantings might bother us. Why they are counter to EVERYTHING this country stands for.
I know exactly why my words bother you: Because they are intolerant of error and you are a pluralist. So why, given the "multitude of truths" that you think exist in the world, are you concerned with my contradicting what you think this country stands for?
So now, you accuse US of hate! I'd laugh if your hypocrisy weren't so outright sickening. What a cowardly refuge you take, instead of even attempting any defense of your views!
I believe I said "name-calling, blasphemy, irreverance...and taking the Lord's Name in vain." I don't see anything about "hate," but feel free to keep putting words in my mouth - it really gives you credibility.
And make no mistake, cowardly is what it is. You are like all those trolls on this forum who come here spouting one or another type of extremist hate or insanity, and are shocked, shocked! that honest, decent conservatives and libertarians condemn, denounce, and vilify them. They are dumbfounded that they so misjudged FReepers as being as psycho as they, so wrongly. However, like you, they will never examine the fallacies in their own paranoid beliefs, having taken such care to construct a mental house-of-cards to support their mania.
Again, I'm not shocked, but I wouldn't consider you "decent" by any means from your discourses. As for my "house-of-cards," I would gladly place it over your ideology anyday.
It is noteworthy that you bolted as soon as the heat came on in full force, along with the questions you preferred not to answer. Now, you return for a quickie, hit-and-run post like the cackle of a witch escaping on her broom after her castle is destroyed.
I went away for the weekend. Honestly. I had no internet access. Really. Your analogy is somewhat amusing, though, but I think you're putting a little too much creativity into what are essentially snide insults.
Enjoy your twisted, evil world. Rest assured, you occupy it quite alone.
Actually, if you'll refer back to the posts, I had a few defenders. It was only when you lost it that most people who couldn't stand to read your childish tantrums headed for the hills.
It is one of America's triumphs as a free nation that it will, with God's good help, and that of a few Patriots, NEVER become the Hell-On-Earth that those of your ilk have tried to construct for so many centuries, and spilt so much blood and pain pursuing.
I recall Christendom lasting for over a thousand years; America has been around for 225 or so. I also recall the 20th century being the bloodiest century in recorded history - all for the sake of secular ideology.
Your fear and cowardice here proves the weakness and utter uselessness of your course. I truly hope reason once again reaches you. Or, failing that, perhaps honesty...as I am still unconvinced that you are not some troll hoping to sow dissent in conservative ranks, or bring disdain upon us.
I'm just a boy who loves his Momma, sir.
I, and many others have bookmarked this thread. Any other time you arrive to make points or posts, rest assured your words will reappear to show others just how "credible" those views are.
I'd be delighted to see my words again. Of course, post #30 was a real gem, but someone felt like wetting their pants to the moderator about it. If you want to see those words again, I may have to repeat myself.
I might get banned for a post like this, but it is worth it to bring to light ther kind of mania and diseased thinking that has given the Left such a handy club to bash conservatism with ove the decades. SOMEONE must call you fanatics on your nonsense, SOMEONE has to proclaim that we are NOT all so blinded by mania and darkness of spirit that we would all embrace such an evil knotting of religion and our countries' ideals as you support.
I don't forsee you getting banned, as I think the moderator has thicker skin than you. Regarding "bashing," you make yourself an easy target because you allow your anger to get the best of you, versus trying to make a logical argument. In fact, other than calling me a "fanatic," repeating my statements, and contradicting me, you've really had nothing interesting to say. Should I think of you as that formidable "SOMEONE"?
People like you have done quite enough over the years to bring the Right down.
I think the so-called "Right" have done a sufficient job by themselves in the last few years by shifting to Left-of-Center. The "conservatives" of today resemble nothing of those 50 years ago - so what exactly are they conserving?
It is time that you were cast down like the burrowing leeches on Freedom and Liberty that you are.
Ha - "I'd like to close this rant with a simile and a reference to the two great pillars of my ideology: Freedom (from thought) and Liberty (from God)."
Now, don't go thinking I want to continue this silly and pointless conversation with you. Just post a few more insults to me, if you wish, and be on your way.
GALILEO
Most frequently pictured in what some historians call "The Black Legend," as a lone crusader persecuted by a narrow and superstitious Church, Galileo (1564-1642) was, in fact, an impatient and conceited individual who insisted on the unquestioned acceptance of his unproven theories, which in fact were scientifically wrong in several particulars. The basis of his theory was in fact scientifically false since he based it on the tides of the sea, which he claimed were caused by the motion of the earth around the sun (his heliocentric hypothesis), whereas the tides do not depend primarily on the sun, but on the moon.
He promulgated his ideas in a flamboyant style, "sometimes in bawdy writings" (Sobel), which set many of his colleagues in the academic community of the time against him. He deliberately chose, against the standard of the
time, to write his books in the vulgar tongue rather than in the Latin of academia, thereby playing, as it were, to the crowds rather than posing a scientific hypothesis to those who could seriously critique it. One of the papal representatives, Melchior Ingofer, expressed it thus: "He writes in Italian, certainly not to extend the hand to foreigners or other learned men, but rather to entice to that view common people, in whom errors very easily take root."
Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, later proclaimed a Saint of the Church, a brilliant Renaissance man who was a great friend and supporter of Galileo, attempted to temper Galileo's brashness by advising him through a mutual aquaintance. "It seems to me that your Reverence and Signor Galileo would act prudently were you to content yourselves with speaking hypothetically and not absolutely, as I have always believed that Copernicus spoke."
Galileo, however, refused to qualify his assertions and arrogantly remarked: "You cannot help it ... that it was granted to me alone to discover all the new phenomena in the sky and nothing to anybody else." Later, however, he recanted his prideful statement and admitted: "My error, then, has been, and I confess it, one of vainglorious ambition and of pure ignorance and inadvertence.... Indeed, those flaws that can be seen scattered in my book were introduced ... through the vain ambition and satisfaction of appearing clever above and beyond the average among popular writers" (1633).
Ironically, both Luther and Melanchthon had rejected Galileo's theory off-hand. Moreover, many in the academic would were hostile to Galileo and condemned his theories. On the contrary, it was the Roman Catholic Church, not the "enlightened reformers," that sponsored Galileo's lectures and supported his honest endeavors. Pope Urban VIII, Cardinal Bellarmine, and many other leaders of the Church publicly supported Galileo's scientific work, many of them owned telescopes made by him and conducted their own observations.
Galileo was not condemned. In only one trial, in 1633 (not the two that some erroneously allege, as in 1616 his friend Cardinal Bellarmine only advised him informally), he was given a moderate sentence (the recitation once a week for three years of the penitential psalms, which he had already been doing anyway and voluntarily continued to do afterwards, a practice that would take only fifteen minutes per week) for publishing as pure doctrine what he was told to publish as theory. The basis of his theory was in fact false since he based it on the tides of the sea, which depend not primarily on the sun, but on the moon.
Galileo spent not even one single day in prison, nor did he suffer any physical penalty. On the contrary, during his trial in Rome in 1633, he was housed in elegant apartments with a personal servant. Thereafter, he resided for a time in the palace (which his daughter described as "so delightful") of the Archbishop of Siena, a supporter. He was never prohibited from continuing his work and studies, and was never barred from receiving visitors. In other words, instead of holding Galileo prisoner as a confessed heretic, he was indulged as a guest of honor. Galileo died at the age of 78 in his own bed, with the plenary indulgence and blessing of the pope. (Vittorio Messori, Levandas Negras de la Iglesia)
Moreover, the pope of the time, Urban VIII, had brought to the Holy See an interest in scientific investigation not shared by his immediate predecessors. Galileo knew him personally -- had shown him his telescope, and had won him to his side one night, after a banquet at the Florentine court, in a debate about why ice floats. Urban had long admired Galileo so much that he had even written a poem for him, mentioning the sights revealed by "Galileo's glass."
Maria Celeste, Galileo's sister, delighted with her father at this turn of events: "The happiness I derived from the gift of the letters you sent me, Sire, written to you by that most distinguished Cardinal, now elevated to the exalted position of Supreme Pontiff, was ineffable, for his letters so clearly express the affection he has for you, and also shows how highly he values your abilities." (Dava Sobel)
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"In the spring of 1599, the trial was begun before a commission of the Roman Inquisition, and, after the accused had been granted several terms of respite in which to retract his errors, he was finally condemned (January, 1600), handed over to the secular power (8 February), and burned at the stake in the Campo dei Fiori in Rome (17 February). Bruno was not condemned for his defence of the Copernican system of astronomy, nor for his doctrine of the plurality of inhabited worlds, but for his theological errors, among which were the following: that Christ was not God but merely an unusually skillful magician, that the Holy Ghost is the soul of the world, that the Devil will be saved, etc."
He seems rather calm amidst the flames, though.
Ah, you've found another one of my loves - The "Index." I was sorry to see it go. What's to defend? The fact that I believe in censorship, ala Robert Bork? Oh no, now look what I've done - the New Order pugilists will be beating down my door soon.
Well, your dementia is out in the open. I suppose that's a good thing. I use the word "good" in the sense that it's good to lance a boil.
That is a painting not a photograph.
It is nice that the Catholic Church of that day was a little less barbaric than the secular world, but it still makes one wonder how anyone claiming to be Christian could be that cruel. The bible makes it clear what they should have done with the blasphemer: kicked him out of the church and treated him with the same disdain as a pagan.
Ah, hypocrisy...it means never having to say you're sorry. I can see, however, that the idea of human freedom and individual liberty might be quite frightening to someone like you. Apparently, ESPECIALLY that freedom to leave at will.
We've established that you are opposed to liberty, love censorship, favor the cruelty of the Inquisition (and yes, I read the article...and what a brazen attempt to deny history it was! Stalin would blush with pride at that rewriting of history), believe that the state should force a religion on the people, and have no qualms about playing the victimm when challenged.
We also know you as a total hypocrite. At least you returned to attempt a defense...I guess I'm not so unworthy of your attention as you say.
Still, if there is a Hell, its fires eagerly await you more enthusiastically than me.
Oh, but if you do that, you don't get to confiscate his property and lands "for the Church", as was done then.
The fires of hell are equal opportunity flames. God says nix on all this nonsense, whether it be abuses by fathers of a church or whether it be pagan mockings.
Fifthmark is a sedevacantist?
(I guess so. More Catholic than the Pope)
Sure, by torturing people to death, imprisoning them for no reason without any fair trials, and stealing their property and freedom. With friends like that...
" he will be satisfied to make judgments inappropriate to the times being judged."
The same claptrap is used nowadays to defend the Islamist terrorists...it's the CULTURE, and we shouldn't judge, eh? The things done in the Inquisition are WRONG, no matter WHAT age they occur in. You would apparently prefer that no one say, "Never Again". No different from Holocaust deniers.
" I merely pointed to a system of beliefs that contradicts those taught by Christ and drew the obvious conclusion."
Funny, I always thought that Protestants belived in Jesus and the Bible. They just comitted the "sin" of not shopping for them at YOUR store.
"Exclusivist, triumphalist, and intolerant - guilty on all three counts. But Catholicism is not my religion - it is God's and exists for all those who seek Him."
And none must ever dare question it, right? Free Will must really cost you some sleep.
"If what I perceive as the truth is "hateful" and "bigoted," then so be it. Concerning "anti-Americanism": In the pluralist world that you live in, am I not allowed to have my own opinion and disagree with the current Administration?"
It is not the Administration or even the President that you disagree with, let's not be coy. It is the entire Constitution. That document is one I swore to uphold against all enemies foreign and domestic...which now, apparently, includes YOU.
"I know exactly why my words bother you: Because they are intolerant of error and you are a pluralist. So why, given the "multitude of truths" that you think exist in the world, are you concerned with my contradicting what you think this country stands for?"
Your words bother me because they go against the very essence of what this country was founded upon. And it's not what I THINK...the Declaration Of Independance and Constitution make this abundantly clear. Maybe you should read THEM sometime. BTW, you know exactly NOTHING of how I view the world. You just think you do...egotistical fanatics are like that.
"Again, I'm not shocked, but I wouldn't consider you "decent" by any means from your discourses. As for my "house-of-cards," I would gladly place it over your ideology anyday."
Considering that your idea of "decent" apparently includes disdain for the Constitution, Liberty and Freedom, support for censorship of thought and word, and a relishing of cruelty and despotism, I'll take that as a high compliment. And as for your "house of cards", mine built the greatest, freest country in the history of the world. Yours repressed it for millennia.
"Actually, if you'll refer back to the posts, I had a few defenders. It was only when you lost it that most people who couldn't stand to read your childish tantrums headed for the hills."
Very few. And they followed you straight for the tall grass.
"I recall Christendom lasting for over a thousand years; America has been around for 225 or so. I also recall the 20th century being the bloodiest century in recorded history - all for the sake of secular ideology."
And in that time, Christendom has comitted sins which it is now owning up to, consistent with its ORIGINAL teachings. You would have it revert back to its darkest days. In 225 years, America has accomplished things that those Inquisitors you ape could only have dreampt of, if they but had even that freedom.
" I'd be delighted to see my words again."
Of course you would. Egotists are like that. Unfortunately, they only truly show you for what you are...a totalitarian.
I can't believe you missed this one. Read the posts carefully.
Say what????????LOL!
THAT .... was funny!
ah yess...
more of God's alleged followers... pleasing him by torturing those to death... who cannot find it in their hearts to believe "it" EXACTLY as they dictate.
yup...
I am soooo sure that's what a merciful Christ Jesus died for... Just so we could kill all who resist his (or is it really, our) will?
now I know why some folks say, God can vomit about some stuff.
"The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite" (Ecclesiates i.15).
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