So, what do ya think?
Or this?
Posted on 06/13/2004 12:06:52 PM PDT by BurbankKarl
No L.A.? It's no joke.
A strong legal argument can be made that the name of the city of Los Angeles -- even worse its formal name, "The Town of Our Lady the Queen of Angels of the Little Portion" -- violates the constitutional requirement for separation of church and state.
Some constitutional law experts say the American Civil Liberties Union's campaign to remove a small cross from the Los Angeles County seal and similar efforts elsewhere in the country help build a foundation for challenges against communities like San Francisco, San Diego or Santa Barbara.
"That's absolutely right," said Joerg Knipprath, a professor of constitutional law at the Southwestern University School of Law in Los Angeles.
"The cross is a minor symbol on the county seal whereas Los Angeles is the 'City of Angels.' San Clemente, Santa Monica, Sacramento, San Francisco, etc., are all religious references.
"It's far-fetched at this point. I don't think it's going to happen in the next 10 years. But if somebody said 10 or 20 years ago that we were going to challenge the Pledge of Allegiance or this tiny little cross on the county seal, the argument would have been that was far-fetched too."
The First Amendment bans the government from making an "establishment of religion," so Los Angeles' name -- a reference to Mary, the mother of Jesus -- could be construed as illegal.
On those grounds, a federal appeals court ruled in 2002 that the phrase "under God" was impermissible in the Pledge of Allegiance if teachers led schoolchildren in reciting it. That ruling was put on hold until the U.S. Supreme Court hands down a final ruling in the California case, which could come by July.
This month, bowing to the ACLU's Southern California chapter, Los Angeles County supervisors agreed to replace a Christian cross on its 47-year-old official seal with depictions of a mission and indigenous people. The ACLU said it found no fault with the seal of the city of Los Angeles, which is surrounded by a rosary.
Douglas Mirell, an attorney and ACLU board member, said he doesn't have insight into where the next "battleground" will be but he "doesn't see" anyone challenging the name of California cities or counties.
ACLU boards decide whether to challenge crosses and other religious symbols on public property after someone makes a complaint to them.
"The ACLU has been fairly selective about the religious battles it has taken on over the years," Mirell said. "It's obviously a question that divides people, sometimes bitterly. And except in those cases where the law is clear, the ACLU frequently decides its resources are better spent elsewhere."
However, some attorneys and activists expect the ACLU or other groups to bring more challenges against cities and counties across the nation unless they remove crosses and other religious symbols on government seals and public property.
"I think the ACLU may very well bring similar cases in future years all over the country," said Erwin Chemerinsky, a professor of constitutional law at the University of Southern California.
Since 1999, the ACLU, other groups and individuals have been successful in getting crosses on government seals removed in Los Angeles County, Redlands and La Mesa, Calif.; Zion, Ill.; Stow, Ohio; Bernalillo, N.M.; Rolling Meadows, Ill.; and Edmond, Okla. A federal court allowed Austin, Texas, to keep a cross on its seal after a legal challenge.
During the same period, the groups have successfully argued that crosses on public land must be removed -- or forced public entities to give up their ownership of land with crosses -- in Ventura, Simi Valley and the Mojave National Preserve, Calif.
Douglas Kmiec, a constitutional law professor at Pepperdine University School of Law, said that if the past is any guide, he expects the ACLU or others to challenge the mention of religion at graduations and the names of cities with religious identification.
"The logic of the ACLU's reasoning would suggest that Santa Monica should be renamed Monica, San Diego should be renamed Diego and on down the line. Los Angeles is a similar reference to angels. The full title of Los Angeles is a distinctly religious name."
ACLU spokesman Tenoch Flores said the organization only becomes involved in issues when contacted by people who believe there is a problem, and he doesn't expect anyone to challenge the name of Los Angeles or other communities.
"That has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. Nobody is considering suing to change city names. If anybody were to bring such a suit, it would laughed out of court and rightfully so.
"We don't go around looking for things, but we certainly don't back down in the face of criticism if it's determined that a constitutional issue is at stake."
Bruce Einhorn, chairman of the Anti-Defamation League in Los Angeles, which supported the county supervisors' decision to remove the cross, said the ADL doesn't file lawsuits and doesn't know if there is a good legal argument to challenge the name of Los Angeles.
"It's very hypothetical and distinctively different from very specific symbols of religious faith, whether they be Stars of David, Christian crosses or Islamic crescents," Einhorn said. "We'd have to cross that bridge when it's built. We would rather not stoke fires that haven't been started."
Jay Seculow, a radio host and chief counsel of the American Center for Law and Justice, a Virginia-based public interest law firm founded by religious broadcaster Pat Robertson -- which had offered to defend the Los Angeles County seal in court -- said the fight over the seal is part of a trend.
"(The goal is to) purge all religious observances and references from American public life. Will (opponents) try to get the name of Los Angeles changed? Sure. Why not, if they can get the cross removed from the seal?"
San Francisco is named after St. Francic of Assisi. Ironically, patron saint of animals.
Of course, as a compromise, we could always refer to San Diego and San Francisco as Dago and Frisco, respectively, as generations of "swabbies" have.
Hmmm, what will they offer for a new name?
Castrograd perhaps?
Chomskystadt?
Villa Chavez?
Power-seekers like clumsy termininology (since forces everyone to go out of their way to accommodate PS preferences). How about O'Hair-RamseyClarkberg?
I've got it, Multicultistan.
LA LA LAND
How 'bout we continue with your unnoticed misspelling idea...
Sangre de Crisco - loosely translated as "High Cholesterol"
Can the ACLU prove that St. Francis of Assisi was a diety or is worshiped?
And Providence which should be renamed into Randomness. Los Angeles can be changed into Fallen Angels or LaVey City. San Francisco can become simply Sodom while San Diego will be Capital de la República del Norte.
Please accept my vote for Multicultistan, California.
Yeah, bump for Multicultistan. (SHEESH!)
I guess I'll be living in a suburb just north of Paul, MN.
Don't any of these idiots have anything better to do with their time........
I surely hope not! St. Francis is the patron of my alma mater.
Isn't funny how the left sees the bill of rights:
The first Amendment, starting with "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion", applies to all levels of government, right down to states and cities.
But the second amendment, stating "The right to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" only applies to the federal government, and the states / cities can do what they want and not violate it.
Fascinating.
Nah, they'd change it to "The city originally named after the guy who was blinded by lightning, converted on the road to Damascus..."
Shouldn't we be able to ban the ACLU as they do the work of the devil, a very religious character identified in Islam?
The ACLU can probably be best described with one word in the plural
"Bolsheviks"
In my humble opinion: Out of many comes the destruction of Christianity, while the Christians dream and the Bolsheviks scheme under the guise of separation of church and state. They don't intend separation; rather decapitation.
Someone get these idiots a job that they're qualified for. I hear McDonald's is looking for burger flippers...
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