Posted on 05/24/2004 9:17:25 PM PDT by churchillbuff
MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) -- As president of the Christian Coalition of Alabama, John Giles is no stranger to a pew. Yet he remembers well the time he got lost in a Roman Catholic church.
"I couldn't even follow the order of service, it was so foreign to me," Giles says of that day some six years ago.
Since then he's found his way and a new home in the Roman Catholic church — a home that might seem foreign to the overwhelmingly Protestant church population of Alabama.
"I have to admit to you that the whole time that I was in that church service, I was reduced to tears, and I couldn't explain it," Giles said Monday in an interview with The Associated Press.
"In fact," he jokes, "you would have thought I had been spending the whole weekend down at the House of the Rising Sun down in New Orleans, that I had all this sin in my life that I had to get out."
In any case, Giles and his wife, Deborah, were received into the Catholic Church at St. Peter's Parish in Montgomery on Easter Sunday.
Such a decision normally wouldn't be a matter of public interest, but Giles says he anticipated the questions that have followed his conversion from the Protestant faith.
"It would be nice if my private, Christian walk could be my private, Christian walk, but it's very difficult in my job for that to be the case," he says.
Giles says he knew the questions would come because as a Protestant he, too, had mistaken notions about Catholics. And the most frequent question he gets from his friends is "why?"
With that in mind he wrote an eight-page letter explaining his reasoning. In it, he explains that he had attended a variety of Protestant churches in Montgomery, including Christian Life Church and River of Life Church.
But once he visited the Roman Catholic church, he found himself in awe of its history and ritual, particularly its use of sight, sound, smell, taste and touch in each service.
Trips to Israel and Rome spurred his curiosity. And the deeper he looked into the faith — which is the largest in the United States but lags behind Southern Baptists and other Protestant denominations in the South — the more he says he realized that many of his beliefs about Catholicism had been wrong.
"There is a perception among Protestants — you kind of have this perception that if you're Episcopal or Catholic, you're not even saved, you're not born again, which is totally a myth," he says.
He recalls one example from the New Year's holiday, which he spent in Florida with the chairman of his board. He had told the chairman of his and Deborah's plans to convert, and he says they were well-received.
"But we went to some other friends of theirs' house on one of the nights we were down there," Giles remembers. "And so we're sitting around visiting and this one lady was teaching a Sunday School class on cults. And she began to name off all the cults that she'd be teaching and named Catholic in there."
He acknowledges that the reaction by his Protestant constituents may be mixed.
"We didn't make this change to win friends and influence people and do it from a popularity standpoint, because we knew that in the state of Alabama, this is probably not a popular position to take in the Christian movement," he says. "So it remains to be seen."
But he hopes they, like he and his wife, will keep an open mind.
"We hope that we could have a small contribution to building bridges where there weren't bridges," he says. "Because Christians are Christians. There's no such thing as Christians and Catholics."
Except for sola scriptura of course...
They don't have them at the church I go to but I like the idea of a traditional Mass --- it's not just show and imagery, it's about "communion", --- something that unites Catholics of the present day with those of 200 years ago, 800 years ago, 1000 years ago. There's nothing like Frankencense, the Gregorian chants, gothic arches to makes you feel the presence of your religious ancestors. Maybe what looks like show and imagery is something like fireworks, flags, parades, and picnics on the 4th of July.
And who determines what is scriptura? ;)
Who determined which of the 20 some Gospels were the Word of God?
A lot depends on the Pastor and the Director of Music. The ones we have now are really supportive of folks singing from the pews. If people tell me, "I don't sing well", I just tell them, "God gave you your voice, give it back to Him!"
Interesting.
Of Alabama?
Doesn't bother me.
Guess you haven't listened to The New Jersey Mass Choir yet. Now granted they're Black and sing in a more Southern Gospel tradition, but I believe they are Catholic ... though I may be wrong.
Been a musician and singer all my life, and I dearly love those first 2 albums ... it's so easy to feel the Holy Spirit in their music every single time it's played.
I just joined an excellent choir in a Spirit-filled Assembly's of God Church that does similar material, ala Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir. I'm busy passing New Jersey Mass CD's around in hopes we can also do some of their tunes soon. Very moving and powerful stuff.
"Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him cometh my salvation. He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved." -- Psalm 62: 1-2.
http://www.the-highway.com/scripture1_Webster.html
A nice piece that popped up on google.
It is not enough for the Scriptures to claim to be inspired. The Book of Mormon and the Koran claim inspiration, too. Sola scriptura is never mentioned in the Bible.
A Catholic building a "Christian Coalition" with Protestants. Isn't that an oxymoron since the Catholic Church believes those outside the Church are heretics?
Interesting I could not find anything mentioned of John Giles Protestant denomination.
He followed the steps of Robert Bork and Creighton Abrams.
St. Thomas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: "a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas". "The right Christian faith consists in giving one's voluntary assent to Christ in all that truly belongs to His teaching. There are,therefore,two ways of deviating from Christianity: the one by refusing to believe in Christ Himself, which is the way of infidelity, common to Pagans and Jews; the other by restricting belief to certain points of Christ's doctrine selected and fashioned at pleasure, which is the way of heretics.
What would you have us do? Abandon Protestants to incorrect dogma or seek to correct what has been corrupted? Before you answer... consider Protestant missions. Do you leave others to flounder in incorrect dogma?
Also, Catholics have a common purpose with our Protestant brothers in Christ...
Luke 9:49 Master, said John, we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us. 50 Do not stop him, Jesus said, for whoever is not against you is for you.
We of the Catholic faith follow the Apostolic succession of the faith given to us from Christ. Those who preach the name of Jesus and do great works in His name, and are yet outside of this tradition, are not our enemy.
But once he visited the Roman Catholic church, he found himself in awe of its history and ritual, particularly its use of sight, sound, smell, taste and touch in each service.
Has Mr. Giles ever been to an Eastern Orthodox service? A Coptic service? An Ethiopian service? An Assyrian service? An Armenian service (which to me is still the most beautiful despite their theology and hostility to Israel)? Roman Catholicism is not the only alternative to Protestantism; in fact, though the "denominations" are fewer, the same problem of multiple claimants of the mantle of the "original church" still exists in the ancient liturgical world.
Nevertheless, as one who searched for most of his life and spent six years in the Catholic Church himself, I wish Mr. Giles well. I just hope he doesn't allow them to warp his attitude towards Israel or destroy his belief in Biblical inerrancy. In fact, when he discovers Catholic hostility to the literal truth of the Bible, I hope he makes the right decision even if it means (as it did eventually for me) leaving chr*stianity altogether. There was a Bible long before there was a chr*stianity, and one must keep one's priorities straight.
And unfortunately, the Catholic Church is the number one promoter in chr*stendom of the blasphemous "documentary hypothesis" (it's even taught on the official Vatican web site). When he runs into that stuff I hope his instincts kick in. I tried to remain in the church and reject this nonsense, but I was eventually convinced that I was too rebellious and didn't belong. There are a few Catholics who accept Mosaic authorship, Biblical inerrancy, and creationism, but they are a distinct minority and they aren't going to get anywhere. The Protestant "revolt" filled the Catholic Church with such a revulsion of "private interpretation" that now the belief is that evolution is almost required to illustrate that the Bible doesn't mean what it seems to say.
John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 "I am the bread of life. 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 "This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh." 52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"
Protestants discount Jesus's very clear words here as figurative. We are meant to consume His body, the Word, they say, not His physical body. If that were so, you would think Jesus would rather correct the misunderstanding than to drive away His followers with the incomprehensible... but He doesn't...
53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 "This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."
59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? 62 "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." 66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" 68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
I'm always amazed that the Sola Scriptura crowd can tell you where every "i" should be dotted and every "t" crossed but gloss over this exchange as merely figurative.
Scripture is the Word of God. However, It is not all God ever had to say. Reference the number of times the Gospels say Jesus went somewhere and did some things... without elaboration. He stayed with His Apostles for 40 days and yet that period amounts to mere paragraphs. Even Scripture states clearly that It isn't the sum total of all that Jesus did and said and the complete history of God's revelation in minute detail...
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that should be written.
Sure. Anybody can take CC voter guides or work with them. In the mid-1990's, the CC had a major Catholic effort on with a $1 million grant. Unfortunately the money went dry.
John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 "I am the bread of life. 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 "This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh." 52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"
Protestants discount Jesus's very clear words here as figurative. We are meant to consume His body, the Word, they say, not His physical body. If that were so, you would think Jesus would rather correct the misunderstanding than to drive away His followers with the incomprehensible... but He doesn't...
53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 "This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."
59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? 62 "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." 66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" 68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
I'm always amazed that the Sola Scriptura crowd can tell you where every "i" should be dotted and every "t" crossed but gloss over this exchange as merely figurative.
Scripture is the Word of God. However, It is not all God ever had to say. Reference the number of times the Gospels say Jesus went somewhere and did some things... without elaboration. He stayed with His Apostles for 40 days after His Resurrection from the dead (oops) and yet that period amounts to mere paragraphs. Even Scripture states clearly that It isn't the sum total of all that Jesus did and said and the complete history of God's revelation in minute detail...
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that should be written.
There's nothing quite like good acapela music when it is done well. I've been in a church where, during the singing, a guest asked me "where's the organ, I can't see it." Of course, they were sure they were hearing one, but were so surprised to learn that there was no instruments of any kind being used.
Actually, most Protestant churches today are not Protestant at all. They're actually Remonstrant churches and reject the superior Biblical theology of the Reformers in favor of the same human glorifying errors that infect Catholicism. Birds of a humanist feather flock together.
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