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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Catholics don't take issue with the nature and source of Sacred Scripture. We do take issue with Protestants in their selective use and belief in Scripture. The absolute clearest example of this is the Eucharist...

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 "I am the bread of life. 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 "This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh." 52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"

Protestants discount Jesus's very clear words here as figurative. We are meant to consume His body, the Word, they say, not His physical body. If that were so, you would think Jesus would rather correct the misunderstanding than to drive away His followers with the incomprehensible... but He doesn't...

53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 "This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? 62 "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." 66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" 68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.

I'm always amazed that the Sola Scriptura crowd can tell you where every "i" should be dotted and every "t" crossed but gloss over this exchange as merely figurative.

Scripture is the Word of God. However, It is not all God ever had to say. Reference the number of times the Gospels say Jesus went somewhere and did some things... without elaboration. He stayed with His Apostles for 40 days after His Resurrection from the dead (oops) and yet that period amounts to mere paragraphs. Even Scripture states clearly that It isn't the sum total of all that Jesus did and said and the complete history of God's revelation in minute detail...

John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that should be written.

38 posted on 05/25/2004 7:15:16 AM PDT by pgyanke ("The Son of God became a man to enable men to become sons of God" - C.S. Lewis)
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To: pgyanke
Protestants discount Jesus's very clear words here as figurative. We are meant to consume His body, the Word, they say, not His physical body. If that were so, you would think Jesus would rather correct the misunderstanding than to drive away His followers with the incomprehensible... but He doesn't...

Yet you discount the words of Genesis as "figurative," perhaps even adaptations from pagan mythology. What is the difference between you and the people you are criticizing?

How long will Mr. Giles last? How much will he have to suffer?

60 posted on 05/25/2004 12:22:23 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki sheishet yamim `asah HaShem 'et HaShamayim ve'et Ha'Aretz.)
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To: pgyanke
The problem Reformed believers have with the Roman celebration of the Eucharist is that it appears to demean the absoluteness of Christ's sacrifice.

Christ died and was resurrected in order that His sheep might receive redemption. The act was complete; finished. His sheep know His voice; they come when summoned. To celebrate Christ's victory over death again and again and again means that His sacrifice is NOT complete, but needs to be repeated in perpetuity.

This is illogical. Instead, Hebrews 9:12 tells us Christ's atonement has "obtained eternal redemption" for the elect. Eternal. Now and forever. His suffering is complete.

Our sanctification continues. But our salvation is assured by God's unmerited gift of faith, known to Him from before the foundation of the world.

"We love Him, because He first loved us." -- John 4:19. Salvation is His to give; not ours to accept.

For any church as an institution to say that the elect's salvation is not "finished" but is an ongoing process which can slip away at any point in time is actually the institution insuring its own survival by making it appear indispensable.

An excellent article detailing the difference between the Catholic Eucharist and the reformed Last Supper can be read here:

http://www.reformed.org/webfiles/antithesis/v1n5/ant_v1n5_enduring.html

"The cross of Christ is overthrown as soon as the altar is set up." -- John Calvin.

It really is "finished." Thank you, God, for the saving grace of faith in Your Son, Jesus Christ, and for the eternal comfort of the Holy Ghost. On this blessing, Catholics and Reformed can agree.
65 posted on 05/25/2004 12:34:23 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: pgyanke

In my NIV it says:

John 6:63 ".... the words I have spoken to you are spirit" and I have always understood this statement to be a spiritual thing, not physical in the sense you believe. There is another passage; can't think of where right now and I've gotta get back to work but Jesus chastises them for taking it literally.

Anyway, for whatever it's worth. You have your beliefs and I have mine. I've read Scott what's-his-face's book and even that wasn't enough to convince me you're right.


281 posted on 05/27/2004 10:19:37 AM PDT by Paved Paradise
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