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Here to Stay: We're here, we're mildly and tolerantly homophobic, get used to it!
National Review Online ^ | May 14, 2004 | John Derbyshire

Posted on 05/14/2004 8:52:04 AM PDT by xsysmgr

Having previously described myself in these pages, and elsewhere, as "a mild, tolerant homophobe," I feel it is incumbent upon me to speak out now and then about homogamy (that is, "gay marriage") and kindred topics on behalf of the homophobe community — part of the larger Homophobic, Anti-Lesbian, Transsexuality-Hostile Or Moralistically-Oriented (HALTHOMO) community. The following are just random fugitive thoughts, with no particular coherence from one section to another and in no particular order.

Their worst nightmare. A "mild, tolerant homophobe" is the homo-activist's worst nightmare. Even to admit the possible existence of such a creature would explode his entire ideology. Anyone who does not give whole-hearted, roaring approval to the entire homo-agenda must, must, be tarred as a stump-toothed knuckle-dragging primitive, probably afflicted with grave psychiatric problems and hopelessly out of touch with the zeitgeist. If you are not totally on board with absolutely every tiny point of homo-dogma, then you are a sick, poisonous bag of cruelty and evil, who must be destroyed. That's what ideologues are like; that's the totalitarian mindset.

Just as Lenin hated the mild, constitutional Mensheviks with far more passion than he could ever bring to bear against the Tsar and his Cossacks, the homo-agitators hate folk like me much more intensely than they hate the killers of Matthew Shepard. Those felons, after all, serve a very useful purpose for homo-propagandists: By their awful crimes, they validate the victim status of homosexuals, and thereby the homo-activist project of upturning our society and rewriting all its laws to eliminate the "root causes" of such outrages. (Which are: the slightest, merest, faintest hints or traces of disapproval of homosexual acts.)

I, on the other hand, am of no use to them, and say things they don't want people to hear.

Well, all of that is their problem, not mine. I've been in this world long enough to know who I am, and I'm not in the habit of apologizing for any of it. I also know that there are vast numbers of Americans — many tens of millions — who think pretty much the way I do about this topic, and they are probably not in much of a mood to apologize about their views, either. We're here, we're mildly and tolerantly homophobic, get used to it!

A kindred spirit. Not just Americans but Englishmen, too. Here is historian and über-opinion journalist Paul Johnson, uttering my own homophobic thoughts in his 1997 book The Quest for God, pp. 28-29:

There were a great many of us, in the 1960s, who felt that there were grave practical and moral objections to the criminalisation of homosexuality, and therefore supported, as happened in most Western countries, changes in the law which meant that certain forms of homosexual behaviour ceased to be unlawful. Homosexuality itself was still to be publicly regarded by society, let alone by its churches, as a great moral evil, but men who engaged in it, within strictly defined limits, would no longer be sent to prison. We believed this to be the maximum homosexuals deserved or could reasonably expect. We were proven totally mistaken. Decriminalisation made it possible for homosexuals to organize openly into a powerful lobby, and it thus became a mere platform from which further demands were launched. Next followed demands for equality, in which homosexuality was officially placed on the same moral level as standard forms of sexuality, and dismissal of identified homosexuals from sensitive positions, for instance schools, children's homes, etc., became progressively more difficult. This was followed in turn by demands not merely for equality but privilege: the appointment, for instance, of homosexual quotas in local government, the excision from school textbooks and curricula, and university courses, passages or books or authors they found objectionable, special rights to proselytize, and not least the privilege of special programmes to put forward their views — including the elimination of the remaining legal restraints — on radio and television. Thus we began by attempting to right what was felt an ancient injustice and we ended with a monster in our midst, powerful and clamouring, flexing its muscles, threatening, vengeful and vindictive towards anyone who challenges its outrageous claims, and bent on making fundamental — and to most of us horrifying — changes to civilized patterns of sexual behaviour.

For how much longer will thoughtful, learned conservatives be able to write things like that under the imprint of a respectable publisher, without author and publisher both ending up in jail?

We can't help it, we're born this way. To the best of my observation, it is congenital. The people afflicted by it report that they have always felt that way. You can't say it's unnatural, either — there is plenty of evidence for it in the animal kingdom. And, let's face it, in 99.99 percent of cases, it's perfectly harmless.

I am speaking about homophobia, of course. Reading Louis Crompton's book Homosexuality and Civilization for a review, I found myself thinking that homophobia is, as a social and psychological phenomenon, more interesting than homosexuality. It seems to have been present in all human societies, though more intense in certain times and places than in others. Often — for instance, in the United States until about 40 years ago — it was well-nigh universal.

Where does it come from? Propagandists like Crompton tell you it's all the fault of Leviticus and St. Paul. Nonsense. Plato was a homophobe, at least by the time he got around to writing The Laws, yet he could not possibly have heard of St. Paul and I seriously doubt he was acquainted with Leviticus. If homophobia is socially conditioned, there seems never to have been a society that did not condition it to some extent.

If, on the other hand, homophobia is a "hard-wired" feature of the human personality, then the homo-propagandists have a tough job on their hands. Perhaps we should try to find out just what exactly homophobia is. Why aren't homosexualists agitating for intensive scientific research on homophobia? They're afraid of what we might find, perhaps.

Human nature has no history. Why am I — how dare I be! — so insouciant about my own homophobia? Aren't I ashamed of myself? Isn't it a cruel, bigoted, outrageous thing, to be a homophobe?

To believe that it is, you have to think very badly of the human race at large. As a conservative who reads a lot and takes an interest in history, I tend to accord some weight to the opinions of past generations. I do not subscribe to the fashionable belief that human beings suddenly got much smarter and more moral around 1965, and that everyone who lived prior to that date was a benighted ignoramus. There are plenty of people long dead who seem to me to have been very smart indeed — much smarter than I, in many cases. It is even possible that one or two of them may have been smarter than the editorialists at the New York Times. I don't know, I don't say this necessarily was so, only that I wouldn't altogether rule it out.

And practically all of them were homophobes! My own father was a homophobe. Plato, as I have already mentioned, was one of us; so was Cicero (so far as the ancient world is concerned, I have never read anything that contradicts J. P. V. D. Balsdon's remark in his book Romans and Aliens, that "Homosexuality was one of the paradoxes of ancient life, universally practised and universally reprobated"). Winston Churchill and Teddy Roosevelt were homophobes. So were the great novelist-prognosticators of the 20th century, Aldous Huxley* and George Orwell**. In none of these cases was the motivation religious. In fact, my father was, as I have mentioned before in this space, a militant atheist.

So am I supposed to think that all these folk were wrongheaded, and that in the matter of homosexuality I should prefer the opinions of Barney Frank, Andrew Sullivan, and Rosie O'Donnell? Sorry, no sale. I stand with Plato and Cicero, Churchill and TR, Orwell and Huxley, and my Dad. Not bad company, it seems to me. I feel pretty comfortable with it, anyway.

A funny thing. I object to the word "gay" as a synonym for "male homosexual" in part because in my experience homosexuals are not gay at all. If anything they are, in the generality, rather morose. Could anything be less gay than a "gay bar"? Certainly there is precious little humor to be found among homosexual activists, who take themselves more seriously than the average Old Kingdom Pharaoh. (As responses to this column will no doubt demonstrate.)

This is a shame, as one of the more traditional approaches to homosexuality was that it is funny. I suppose a homo-activist would say that this approach was demeaning to homosexuals, in the same way that the slow-thinking Amos'n'Andy caricatures were demeaning to black people. Well, there is humor and there is humor. Jokes can be used to insult and offend people; but they can also be great humanizers. "One touch of nature makes the whole world kin," someone once said. He meant human nature, of which laughter is a key component, though you would never know it from mixing with ideologues.

In any case, the impulse to poke fun at each other using group stereotypes is obviously irresistible to the human psyche, and it would be a great loss to humanity if the PC ideologues were ever to succeed in their campaign to stamp it out. Amos'n'Andy may have left the scene, but we still have some harmless fun with the group characteristics of black Americans — and white Americans, and Jewish Americans, and every other kind — using less obnoxious stereotypes. Would you laugh quite as much at Saturday Night Live's "Ladies' Man" if he were white, for example? Or at Jackie Mason if he dropped the shoulder-shrugging and Yiddishisms? When it comes to foreigners, of course — the fussy Englishman, the haughty Frenchman, the boorish German, the over-polite Japanese, etc., etc. — the fun has never stopped. (Arabs? Check out the back page of the March 8, 2004, Weekly Standard.)

In re male homosexuality, the old stereotype of the emotive fairy has pretty much disappeared from the public square now, mainly through changes in homosexual style. Your modern male homosexual spends half his time working out at the gym and the other half shooting up with testosterone. He is "cut" like a thoroughbred racehorse and has a voice so deep it makes the crockery vibrate. I think only the intrepid Sean Delonas (select the February 15 cartoon) is still working with the older stereotype.

In any case, you can hardly switch on your TV without catching some sitcom in which the funniness of homosexuality is at least a secondary theme. Homosexuals may not be gay, but their existence surely adds to the sum of human gaiety. On balance, though, I think that to most people, lesbianism is funnier than male homosexuality. It seems to me, in fact, that quite a lot of people cannot utter the word "lesbian" without smiling. The notion of Sally and Suzy making the beast with two backs is just intrinsically hilarious. It is probably not a coincidence that while there is no nationally-known male homosexual comedian of any stature, Ellen Degeneres has got her own TV show.

"One touch of nature..." That was the Swan of Avon, of course — Ulysses's great speech in Act 3 of Troilus and Cressida. I had never attended a performance of this play, nor even read it through, until this month. What happened was, a reader of my review of Louis Crompton's book took issue with my statement that there are no "gay" characters in Shakespeare's plays. Surely (he said) I must at least allow Pandarus? Barely knowing who Pandarus was, I ran for my Shakespeare and read T&C.

I couldn't see the thing about Pandarus. I mean, I could see from reading the play that he might be interpreted as "gay," but it didn't seem necessary. (Though I admit the line "If my lord get a boy of you, you'll give him me..." needs some explaining.) The clown Thersites, however, struck me as a much better candidate — so much so, that when reading the play, I wondered if my correspondent had got his characters mixed up, and really meant "Thersites" when he said "Pandarus."

However, there is nothing like seeing a play acted on the stage to bring out these things. Since there were no stage performances of the play in my vicinity, I bought a DVD of the BBC/Time-Life production, with Charles Gray as Pandarus. Sure enough, Gray queened it up a bit, though I still don't see the absolute necessity. The Thersites in this production, though, was played as what the English call a screamer. I think it's the "gayest" portrayal of any character I've ever seen in a play that is not actually about homosexuals. The credits bill the actor as "The Incredible Orlando." Oh, he was incredible, all right — wooo-hooo! But no, I still don't get the Pandarus thing.

(I am inclined to take the BBC/Time-Life production with a grain of salt in any case. It was directed by Jonathan Miller, he who put on a performance of Rigoletto with everyone dressed up as modern mafiosi — and also, if memory serves, a production of Titus Andronicus with the action located on the surface of the Moon. "An imaginative production," as they say. No, I am not convinced.)

A river in Egypt. One of the creepiest things about the many e-mail exchanges I get into with homosexuals is the act of doublethink that all of them — all of my correspondents, anyway — have now performed in regard to AIDS. One recently asked me to enumerate my objections to homosexuality. I responded with a list that included the fact that male homosexuality is a public health problem. How, my correspondent asked, in apparently genuine bafflement, could a mere 3 percent of the population cause a public health problem?

Another common deflector is: "Well, in Africa, AIDS is spread mainly by heterosexual contact." Which may very well be true. Unfortunately, it is also true that this is not Africa.

This state of doublethink is impervious to reason or evidence. Male homosexuals apparently all believe that (a) AIDS has been a ghastly tragedy for them, deserving of widespread sympathy from the rest of us, not to mention lavish government-research funding paid from our taxes; (b) that the presence of this horrible disease in our society is no responsibility of theirs whatsoever; and (c) that AIDS is pretty harmless anyway, now easily controlled by drugs.

But look at this report from the New York Academy of Medicine. "HIV remains the leading cause of death among New Yorkers aged 25-44 years...drug abuse and sex between men fuel the epidemic.... About 3.9 percent of all men between the ages of 40 to 49 years have HIV infection or AIDS...."

Is homophobia dying out? Homo-propagandists make much of opinion polls showing that young people are more tolerant than their parents. I don't think they should be so sanguine. The experience of marrying and having kids makes people more conservative, so that the liberalism of the young may not be so much a feature of the age we live in as a feature of their age. Any pollster will tell you that married women are more socially conservative than single women, and if you think about it, it's not hard to figure out why this should be so.

In any case, I see no good news for homosexuals in opinion polls. Homogamy? As Jonathan Chait — a metropolitan liberal who supports homogamy — points out in the March 15, 2004, issue of The New Republic, opinion pollsters only get a bare majority of respondents favoring legal homosexual relationships, never mind marriages. Last July, for example, in a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll quoted by Chait, the numbers broke 48-46 on the statement: "homosexual relations between consenting adults should or should not be legal."

If you mention these figures the homo-activists spin like crazy; but every private conversation confirms the plausibility of the poll numbers. (And if you need further confirmation, look at the extreme reluctance of major-league politicians, even extreme liberals like John Kerry, to declare in favor of homogamy. These folk live, eat, and breathe polls.) I know several people — well-educated suburban American adults raising families and holding down responsible jobs — who think homosexual relations should not be legal. I don't myself agree with that position, thus being more mild'n'tolerant on this topic than around half my fellow citizens (as if that will spare me from being called "extremist"!); but if mere opposition to homogamy is a form of "bigotry," well, my goodness, what a lot of us bigots there must be.

The last homosexual. My personal bet is that homosexuality will disappear before homophobia does — possibly quite soon, in a generation or so. Here's my logic: One of the least controversial things you can say about homosexuality is this: Practically nobody wants his kids to grow up homosexual. Some people mind the prospect more than others, but practically nobody welcomes it — not even, I should think, homosexuals. (One of the rare exceptions is Sharon Osbourne, who recently remarked: "My only regret in life is that none of my children are gay." I doubt any very large number of Americans take Mrs. Osbourne as a parenting role model, though.)

Now, the trend in current research on homosexuality, if I have understood it correctly, suggests that the homosexual orientation is indeed mostly congenital — the result of events in the mother's womb, or in early infancy, with perhaps some slight genetic predisposition. The thing is, in short, mainly biochemical — part of a person's physical make-up.

Supposing this is true, let us conduct a wee thought experiment — admittedly a fanciful one. A young woman in the late stages of pregnancy, or carrying a small infant, shows up at her doctor's office. "Doctor," she asks, "is there some kind of test you can do to tell me if my child is likely to become a homosexual adult?" The doctor says yes, there is. "And," the woman continues, "suppose the test is positive — would that be something we can fix? I mean, is there some sort of medical, or genetic, or biochemical intervention we can do at this stage, to prevent that happening?" The doctor says yes, there is. "How much does the test cost? And supposing it's positive, how much does the fix cost?" The doctor says $50, and $500. The woman takes out her checkbook.

Of course this is not happening anywhere in the U.S.A. right now. If my understanding of the state of current research is correct, however, it might very well be happening on a daily basis ten years from now.

If this really comes to pass, the results will be curious and interesting. They will not necessarily bring an end to homosexuality right away. No test, and no $500 fix, is likely to be 100 percent effective. Also, there must be some few borderline cases who "turn," or get "turned" quite late in life. For sure, though, if such a thing becomes reality, there will suddenly be a vast reduction in the numbers of homosexuals. From the current proportion — from 1 to 4 percent — of the population, we might, in a couple of generations, see a drop to, perhaps, 0.01 percent.

That would be a radically different situation. It would also be a very miserable one for homosexuals, as they became an aging, fading cohort, with practically no younger people of their inclination to socialize with. The situation would also be self-reinforcing: As more and more parents took the test and got the fix, the loneliness facing homosexuals would become so dire that no person of conscience could think of raising a person who might become homosexual. The fix might even be applicable later in life, with adult homosexuals "converting" en masse.

In which case, there would be someone, somewhere, who was the last homosexual. What a situation! Think what a playwright or a novelist could do with it!

* * *

* Somewhat oddly in Huxley's case, as he was a sexual progressive, at least in the matter of "open marriage," and was also a lifelong friend of the homosexual Gerald Heard. The main evidence here is at the beginning of Chapter 12 in Sybille Bedford's biography. Bedford was a longtime family friend of the Huxleys:

He had been reading [André] Gide's latest novel, Les Faux Monnayeurs. He usually found him disappointing — too elegant, too literary. Now he was interested, 'The only good book he has written...in its way very good. It is good, I think, because it is the first book in which Gide has ventured to talk about the one thing in the world that really interests him — sentimental sodomy.' It was also, it might be said in passing, one of the things that least interested Aldous, he was rather hoity-toity about sodomites, sentimental or otherwise; whereas Maria [i.e. Mrs. Huxley] got on extremely well with what she loudly and to their faces called our bugger friends, Aldous was made rather uncomfortable by evident male homosexuality. About lesbians he was tolerant, even had a faible [= partiality] — after all he shared their taste, as long as they were feminine and not too orthodox."

** For Orwell, the references are legion.

Yet where's the pink that would have thought it odd of me To write a shelf of books in praise of sodomy? — "As One Non-Combatant to Another," June 18, 1943

Pink sodomites seem to have haunted Orwell's nightmares, perhaps as a consequence of his having attended one of the old-style English boys' boarding schools, where he was (according to Cyril Connolly [according to Malcolm Muggeridge]) not considered sufficiently attractive to take part in the sex games. See also this striking apothegm in Chapter 8 of The Road to Wigan Pier: "You can have an affection for a murderer or a sodomite, but you cannot have an affection for a man whose breath stinks." Homosexual Orwellophiles can take some small comfort from this. Plainly our George didn't like homosexuality, but at least he rated it higher than halitosis!



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: derbyshire; homogamy; homophobia; homosexual; homosexualagenda; marriage; prisoners
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To: nothingnew
A FReeper whose name escapes me observed recently, and I concur, that Derbyshire is the only reason for reading NR.
41 posted on 05/14/2004 8:16:09 PM PDT by mrustow
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To: mrustow

Victor Davis Hanson would be Reason #2.


42 posted on 05/14/2004 9:06:49 PM PDT by Choose Ye This Day ("He never talked vague, idealistic gas. When He said, 'Be perfect,' He meant it." -- C.S. Lewis)
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To: xsysmgr
"Doctor," she asks, "is there some kind of test you can do to tell me if my child is likely to become a homosexual adult?"

I don't like that idea. Although we may not understand their purpose, those people are part of The Design. It is playing God to do what is described there.

Besides which, it's a slippery slope of playing God. First we'll re-design the human race to eliminate homosexuality, and then we'll get rid of [unpopulargroup[,unpopulargroup]].

Otherwise I agree with everything the author said. I don't think the homosexual lobby and all their friends in the press can 'talk away' what most people experience as an instinctual revulsion to what those folks do in their spare time. I mean them no harm, but I do not want them in my face with it.

43 posted on 05/14/2004 9:25:09 PM PDT by Nick Danger (If it weren't for the last minute, nothing would ever get done.)
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To: Nick Danger
"I don't like that idea. Although we may not understand their purpose, those people are part of The Design. It is playing God to do what is described there."

Without question God will be pleased with Mankind when we advance enough to be able to reprogram DNA and its RNA messages into clever new designs.

If God wanted an idiot species that wouldn't advance itself intellectually over generations, then he wouldn't have created Man in the first place.

44 posted on 05/14/2004 9:51:02 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: xsysmgr

been in this man's shoes many a time.
nice to see someone boldly spell it all out.


45 posted on 05/14/2004 10:09:21 PM PDT by King Prout (o ye who have eyes to see, beware of stealth text!)
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To: Southack
Without question God will be pleased

I don't claim to know what God thinks. All I claim to know is that we humans have not demonstrated much skill at anticipating the consequences of tweaking large, natural, chaotic systems in order to "improve" them. The stuff we do by accident is plenty.

46 posted on 05/14/2004 11:09:17 PM PDT by Nick Danger (If it weren't for the last minute, nothing would ever get done.)
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Comment #47 Removed by Moderator

Comment #48 Removed by Moderator

To: Cicero; xsysmgr

<< Brilliantly written. This will produce a very large number of letters to the editor indeed. >>

Derb's a deep one, though! A scholar.

Love him.


49 posted on 05/15/2004 3:24:46 AM PDT by Brian Allen (Intact - Male - American - Republican - Pro-Bush - PRO-ISRAEL - Pro-War - Pro-Gun - Pro-Life! Next?)
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To: xsysmgr
We can't help it, we're born this way. To the best of my observation, it is congenital. The people afflicted by it report that they have always felt that way. You can't say it's unnatural, either — there is plenty of evidence for it in the animal kingdom. And, let's face it, in 99.99 percent of cases, it's perfectly harmless.

Not true...no scientific studies support this. Most, including the twin controlled studies indicate that other 'evironmental' and social factors have an affect on what 'turns us on' sexually and what 'turns of off' sexually.

Think about this: if homosexuality was genetic, what 'normal' gene imprint would have a person sexually turned on by another persons annus?

Sorry, the 'I-like-your-butt-hole' Gene is a myth. It's not there...

50 posted on 05/15/2004 5:33:09 AM PDT by Van Jenerette (We Have Our Republic - If We Can Keep It!)
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To: xsysmgr
The use of the word "homophobia" is in fact a smear. Real "homophobes" are mentally unbalanced people who exhibit extreme reactions -- they're off their rockers, in other words. Application of the word to normal people by homosexual polemicists is a witting smear.
51 posted on 05/15/2004 6:14:13 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus (Et praeterea caeterum censeo, delenda est Carthago. -- M. Porcius Cato)
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To: xsysmgr
Last year in Chicago there was an outbreak of hepatitis in the 'gay' community. It cost the city of chicago TAXPAYERS over $500,000 to provide FREE immunization to the 'gays' by the Chicago Public Health Dept.

I'm sure the TAXPAYERS didn't feel 'gay' when their property tax bills went up to provide this FREE MEDICAL CARE. And no, they didn't have to show that they couldn't afford the shots, they just had to show up and get their FREE shots!

52 posted on 05/15/2004 8:10:17 AM PDT by Condor51 ("Diplomacy without arms is like music without instruments." -- Frederick the Great)
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To: Van Jenerette
We can't help it, we're born this way. To the best of my observation, it is congenital. The people afflicted by it report that they have always felt that way. You can't say it's unnatural, either — there is plenty of evidence for it in the animal kingdom. And, let's face it, in 99.99 percent of cases, it's perfectly harmless.

Derbyshire is referring to homophobia, not homosexuality. See the next line of text.

53 posted on 05/15/2004 11:04:07 AM PDT by xsysmgr
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To: xsysmgr
Thanks. The information in my post still stands on it's own.

Van

54 posted on 05/15/2004 1:54:31 PM PDT by Van Jenerette (We Have Our Republic - If We Can Keep It!)
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To: xsysmgr
the homo-agitators hate folk like me much more intensely than they hate the killers of Matthew Shepard.

And of course they applaud the monogamous 'homosexual' couple that brutally tortured, raped and murdered Jesse Dirkhising

Never let them forget

55 posted on 05/17/2004 6:17:30 AM PDT by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: Nick Danger
I don't like that idea. Although we may not understand their purpose, those people are part of The Design. It is playing God to do what is described there.

Perhaps "homosexuality's" part in the design is to be another disease that mankind can conquer as part of our task to subdue the earth.

56 posted on 05/17/2004 6:20:41 AM PDT by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: seamole
It is not universally in human nature to be homophobic

I disagree. Deep down within us we know what is right and wrong. That's why even in societies that are more accepting of sexual perversity 'homosexuals' have a higher incidence of suicide. They know they are behaving wrongly.

57 posted on 05/17/2004 6:22:30 AM PDT by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: xsysmgr

Awesome article.


58 posted on 05/17/2004 6:35:18 AM PDT by Sloth (We cannot defeat foreign enemies of the Constitution if we yield to the domestic ones.)
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To: Van Jenerette

While I don't harbor the same feelings some on this thread do, I am interested in challenging some of the propaganda from the gay activists.

My mother watches a show where women come to a house to achieve some goal in order to "Start Over(name of the show." Well, one of the women had an identical twin--IDENTICAL. Except the woman at the house had a boyfriend and was getting married to him and her sister was a lesbian. If such things were truly genetic(as opposed to a confluence of factors) then both should have been gay.

I will say this, many lesbians I've seen up here in Seattle have very masculine features. YOu can still tell they are women but it IS almost like they were born to be men.


59 posted on 05/17/2004 6:41:02 AM PDT by Skywalk (Transdimensional Islam!!)
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bump


60 posted on 05/17/2004 2:18:07 PM PDT by ELS
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