Therefore, it bothers them not in the least that they sound exactly like Democrats on the war.
Posted on 05/10/2004 8:35:44 PM PDT by STARWISE
I heard comments tonight from Michael Savage that just struck me as so on the mark, and they scared the crap out of me as well, because it adds up. And it was that these radical Islamists worship death .. we worship life. They don't fear death, they are raised to hope for a martyr's death .. they fear humiliation. We fear death, and will suffer humiliation to avoid death. This is from very deep, cultural programming on both sides and is a potentially catastrophic cultural divide, I feel.
Coincidentally, there is a collision of thought tonight on FR in this thread: Islam and the Culture of Death, an excerpt of which appears below my comments.
And so .. I'm disturbed by the thought that perhaps the horrid pictures clogging the network, cable, internet, talkshow ad nauseum are reflective of people in our intelligence agencies who're extremely smart, knowledgeable and instinctive about this culture ... people who, having great psychological insight , realized that we couldn't threaten them with death ... that wouldn't move them to talk .. but that the humiliation is what would be the ticket to get them to spill the beans about weapons, attacks planned, etc. to eliminate terrorists risks and save lives.... especially at the hands of a small woman or in ways abhorrent to their culture of machismo.
That's why "softening them up" with these humiliations makes sense ... and it is so repugnant to us and has been such a sickening unfolding of shock after vile shock .. yet .. this may be the ONLY threat these animals fear enough to get them to reveal the information our military needs to protect our troops and the survival of our efforts. Yes .. it is completely vulgar, unacceptable, outrageous, repulsive ... and it may be that it's all that will work.
That's what's so frightening to me .. because it's starting to make some sense ... and what's more scary is that they are THAT completely different from us that our typical methods will not work. They prefer to die ... just consider about the gravity of that thought. They choose killing and death, and it is so very alien, so antithetical to our American nature to accept routine killing and to be anxious to die .. to be that primitive and beastly ... we just want everyone to "get along", and how do we handle this?
I believe the direction we choose in the very near future ... this thin line we straddle ... will perhaps determine the outcome of this monumental Third World War.
And how can they NOT take pleasure and boast about the internal political conflict that's going on here? We are publicly on display for the whole world to see, parading our partisan sniping, calling for the resignation of a decent man of proven leadership, competence and sterling reputation, badgering a strong and decent leader in a time of war, pointing fingers and playing gotcha, selfishly pursuing a political agenda instead of banding together to work thru these dangerous times and showing complete disunity instead of joining forces to protect our citizens and perhaps the very survival of our country.
In their culture, the groveling, apologizing, compensating the prisoners looks like WEAKNESS.
How can this have NOT weakened our credibility and the perception the world has of us? How can it NOT have boosted and fueled their jihad? Just how long will this continue to whittle away at the one thing we must never lose: the respect and fear, if necessary, of the world for our might and resolve?
They are truly coming after us ... every way they can, and we're so concerned about being the good Americans we've been raised to be. Will we choose to be politically correct, humane and compassionate ... that's our basic nature.? OR will we realize in time just what kind of mentality we're dealing with and choose to eliminate them before they reap unspeakable future horrors on us?
We've transferred our values to them .. thinking they will appreciate our humanity, that they'll appreciate all we're sacrificing for them, the gifts of freedoms, the lives lost and mutilated for them when all they respect is strength, power and killing the infidels.... destroying us.
The good Iraqis and good Muslims need to step up to the plate and denounce the radicalism AND be willing to walk out into the sunshine and put their lives at risk again, this time with their future finally in their own hands and for their own cause.
We must understand and judge our enemies for the evil they really are .. not what we are as culturally moral and decent humans want to believe they are.
Pray for our beloved country, and pray for our suffering, brave troops, fighting and dying right now to eliminate this evil. God Bless Us All.
----------------------------------------------- An excerpt from "Islam and the Culture of Death," by Robbie Friedman, PhD., which touches on the cultural differences and the perceptions of our apologies, groveling, slamming our military, etc. Pay attention, this may be our very lives in the balance:
"Two setbacks in Iraq in the last couple of weeks are instructive of the difficulties the US-lead coalition is encountering there and they have implications for the West's fight against terrorism. The first instance is the decision not to unleash a full-scale assault on the insurgents in Fallujah and to perhaps even have joint patrols with Iraqi officers. While it is understandable that there is a desire to obtain advantage without battle this has very little leg to stand on.
Wars are not sterile and given the performance of the Iraqis thus far with an estimated 50% deserting or acting against the US it does not appear that much hope should be put on them. The Israelis had their experience of joint patrols with Palestinians and it backfired badly. But the more serious implication is the weakness it broadcasts to the insurgents encouraging them to continue under the assumption that Americans do not wish to fight The Fallujah Stakes: The insurgents understand guns, not diplomacy,, Editorial, The Wall Street Journal, April 26, 2004.
The second setback is the fiasco with the Iraqi prisoners. But if the revelation about humiliating the prisoners is a fiasco then the response to it adds yet even more to the setback and not only in Iraq. Claims that we need to "restore our honor" have limited value for internal consumption ("Restoring Our Honor," Thomas L. Friedman, The New York Times, May 6, 2004).
The problem with such position is that they may impress American constituencies and western followers but NOT those we "want" to impress or placate. Was it horrible and repulsive? Certainly. Should it be handled severely? Very much so. But there are channels for doing it including legal due process. Military courts could - and should - do more than an adequate job at investigating, prosecuting and punishing those who did that and those who are responsible for it. That should have sent the proper message of how our society handles transgressions.
But three days of groveling apologies by the president and the secretary of state? That is highly unlikely to win over any hearts and minds of terrorists. On the contrary, it sends a message of an America that is not sure of itself, that is willing to humiliate itself not merely because it believes that something wrong was done but because it believes that this way it will win (or not lose) "friends." The test of course will be in the results and those are not likely to yield many dividends in this direction ("Real thugs unworthy of apology," Steven Zak, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, 05/06/2004). We might have calmed our own conscience but it is not the enemy that wants to destroy us.
Much of the trouble in Iraq is the result of Iranian meddling for the simple reason that Iran wants its sphere of influence remain untouched by an American victory or an Iraqi regime that would be threatening to Teheran's religious and political domination Iran's Stirrings in Iraq," Dr. Nimrod RaphaeliMEMRI, Inquiry & Analysis - Iran/Iraq, May 5, 2004, No. 173.
That explains Al-Sadr's visit to Iran, the training camps there for his supporters, Iranian intelligence services operating in Iraq, funds to support secular groups, the operation through their proxy the Hizbullah, Iranian pilgrims inundating Iraqi holy sites, and Iranian flags being flown there.
Some suggest the use of "soft power" (in addition to "crude power") but the problem is that the equation is overly titled towards social and cultural services without understanding what makes the population tick and without giving a fuller force its due respect. As long as the radicals and lunatics control the street and the extremist rhetoric dominates the Islamic narrative, then no amount of soft-power will ever do the job. When looking into the elements of soft-power it turns out we are doing it anyway and to suggest that world resentment against the US will increase because fewer visas are granted to potential (Muslim) students goes to show how deep is the misunderstanding of what prompts social, political and terrorist action ("Sell It Softly: Persuasively promoting American values and culture will work better than either carrots or threats to influence the Middle East," Joseph S. Nye Jr., Los Angeles Times, April 25, 2004.
The Iraqi prison fiasco could not have come out at a worst time for Israel. The White House has already retracted its commitments to Sharon in order to placate Arab leaders ("U.S. Retreats From Bush Remarks on Sharon Plan: Effort Is Intended To Placate Arabs," Glenn Kessler, Washington Post, May 5, 2004) although today it refused to back up on it president Bush's statement that a Palestinian state is not likely to be established before the end of 2005. Arafat was his angry self but actually what could have made him happier than the keeping status quo?
We are incensed about our own transgressions even more than about atrocities committed against us. The prison fiasco got more press coverage and already congressional hearings and presidential apologies than what followed the murder and mutilation of four American civilian contractors in Iraq. The world has seen the murder of a pregnant mother and her four children and by and large it has not stopped breathing in shock or express its outrage. If it is any consolation, at times it gives the same disproportional attention to celebrities who messed up such as Michael Jackson or that football player who was charged with killing his wife..... consolation of fools indeed. Perhaps when the lives of those bought-up diplomats would be at risk they will understand the dangers of the culture of death better and then perhaps would be willing to truly support and better serve their own countries."
One possible flaw in your argument: The prisoners submitted to the humiliations rather than resisting unto death.
Just the point I was trying to get over to my wife last night. We must be willing to fight evil with its own arsenal. It doesn't have to mean we become evil. Left on its own, evil will destroy good no matter how noble the good side is. Evil only responds to brute and devastating force. Not pretty...but that's how it is.
As much as I trust our leadership, it is disappointing to see that we're trying to buddy up those animals via joint patrolling. I could see if this is a prelude to turning over authority to an Iraqi government. If there's another "uprising", it'd better be dealt with the brutal force promised previously.
Does anyone know if we've been attempting to expand our military? After it being sliced back in 1990s, we should be doing everything we can to recruit more soldiers. Also be nice to see the Republicans take a stand in Congress and cut back some of the damn pork/entitlement spending and use it for higher pay and more troops. North Korea or China won't wait until we're done in the Middle East to start something.
LEAFLETS for the citizens. As Michael Savage hasbeen saying, women and children have 24 hours to "ex-cape". (a little ebonics lingo, there.) ALL men leaving the city will be set aside in a nearby camp and interrogated. Humanely, of course.
LEVEL the city. With the force of 1000 daisycutters, Fallujah will be incinerated in a show of force not seen since Hiroshima.
'LIM-IN-ATE the survivors. Those not smart enough to leave, and all the "brave" insurgents left alive will be put out of their misery.
This will work if we do it hard, fast, and without apology.
The apologizing is what is killing us. Democrats, to their credit, at least know NOT to apologize, no matter how stupid, outrageous, or inappropriate their actions.
Therefore, it bothers them not in the least that they sound exactly like Democrats on the war.
Is it possible to have a war, even when we are on the right side and not act immorally for even some small part of it? Is that what it takes to win? These are difficult questions, and ones we leave to leaders who have hopefully studied and understand the issues before the decisions need to be made.
I for one am glad I do not have to make these decisions and salute those who accepted the responsibility.
Then we had to drop two nukes on them to make them finally stop fighting.
I know the middle-east doesn't have the relative power that Japan possessed, nor the strong central leadership. Nor, in my opinion, does Arab culture have the depth of Japan's.
But a group of fanatics who value "honor" and "face" over individual/personal freedom, present an enemy unlikely to stop at any reasonable point.
I hope I'm wrong but I think things are only going to get worse.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.