Peggy Noonan: A Humiliation for America - Why the abuse of Iraqi prisoners is so disheartening

OpinionJournal (Wall Street Journal Editorial Page) ^ | May 6, 2004 | Peggy Noonan

[NutCrackerBoy]

Are reports of abuse by Americans at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison hyped and sensationalized? Probably. The world media are in the sensation-making business and it's a world-wide story. Did the abuses occur? Obviously. There are pictures, testimony, an apology Wednesday from the U.S. general who now runs the prisons and denunciations of the abuse as "un-American," (Donald Rumsfeld) and "not the America I know" (George W. Bush). Is the scandal an inspiration to our enemies? Most assuredly. Were the acts acceptable? Of course not. Must they be investigated and justice meted out? Yes, and surely will be.

[NutCrackerBoy]

Peggy's perceptive take.

[jporcus]

Peggy Noonan is great.

[McGavin999]

Yep, one of the most distressing things is what these women (3 of the six arrested were women) and the BG was a woman as well, this will put women in the military in a VERY bad light.

[LadyDoc]

bring back the WACS so women can be support troops, not have to out do the men in being vulgar...

[veronica]

I'm sorry. This story has been blown WAY out of proportion.

And the notion that the Arab world is in high dudgeon over this is laughable, all things considered. Detainees like these who go into Egyptians prisions just disappear. This whole thing just is another bash-Bush fiasco.

[BillyCrockett]

"And the notion that the Arab world is in high dudgeon over this is laughable, all things considered. Detainees like these who go into Egyptians prisions just disappear. This whole thing just is another bash-Bush fiasco."

Yup. The Arab world has been fed so many lies about so many worse atrocities by so many more US soldiers... that this is nothing more than a college hazing incident gone bad.

[Poohbah]

that this is nothing more than a college hazing incident gone bad.

Does college hazing include getting sodomized with chemlights and broomsticks these days?

[Valin]

IRAQ THE MODEL
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/
May 4:
Old friends, and a conversation to share.

I was surprised when I saw that the reaction of Iraqis to the subject of prisoners abuse by some American soldiers was not huge as we all expected to see, even it was milder than the one in other Arab countries and especially than that in the Arab media.
I mean about a month ago, we had considerable reactions and somewhat large demonstrations in response to the killing of Hamas leader, and in the mid of maniac reactions from Arab media and people, the absence of large demonstrations and outrage on the streets of Iraq becomes really strange and give rise to questions. Why the Iraqi people are not really upset with this issue?

Is it because of the firm and rapid response from the American officials to these terrible actions?

Or is it because the Iraqi people lack compassion with the majority of these prisoners?
Could it be that the Iraqi people and as a result of decades of torture, humiliation and executions, took these crimes less seriously than the rest of the world?

Or have the majority of Iraqis finally developed some trust in the coalition authorities and in the American army, to sense that these actions must be isolated and will be punished?

I can’t say I have the full answer but I guess it’s a combination of a little bit of all the above.
I can say that at least some Iraqis seemed to have understood the situation and were satisfied with the reaction of the American officials and their promises that the offenders will be punished. While a wide segment of Iraqis seemed indifferent with the issue and only showed their disapproval when they are asked about it, but rarely with what one can call an angry tone, and I’m talking about my personal experience here, as I tried to ask the largest number of people about their feelings before I write about it.
Here I would like to provide a conversation I had with some friends whom I haven’t seen for a long time and met just yesterday. After a few words of greetings that friends usually exchange after not seeing each other for a long time, the conversation turned towards the current situation in Iraq, and as the prisoners abuse issue is the hottest topic nowadays, I started my attempts to discover their points of view about it. They were all upset but they showed satisfaction with the fast and firm reaction of the coalition higher officials and were also impressed by the honesty of the American soldier who reported the abuse and uncovered tha awful behavior of those criminals but at the same time they said that they’re looking forward to “see the offenders get some real punishment, not just directing few harsh words. A sentence for 3 or 4 years in prison will be convenient”. Others showed more understanding to the American law system.
I also noticed that the abuse pictures brought a flashback from the days of Saddam and the way Iraqi prisoners were treated in; a tone of fear was in the voice of my friend “this could happen to me or anyone else. If someone gets randomly arrested (for being near the site of some clashes or violent demonstrations in the wrong time), he might be tortured or humiliated by the prison guards before they recognize that he’s got nothing to do with the insurgency or the terrorists" That I must say will have a very bad effect on encouraging Iraqis to participate in the political process in Iraq.
Later on, we jumped to another topic, which is the GC and the awaited authority hand-over. Two of my friends condemned the reaction of Jalal Talbani to the prisoners issue when he relatively ignored the questions about it and considered the matter to be “secondary”. One of them added “how comes that the highest ranking officers in the coalition, Tony Blair and GWB gave much attention to this matter and severely condemned the abusive behavior of those soldiers in their latest speeches while Mr. Talbani thinks it’s not worth talking about!?
I asked my friend “when did he say that?” and he replied “yesterday. Didn’t you see that? It was shown on Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabyea” I told him that I don’t watch these two channels and that he shouldn’t do that too. “But where can I get the news then?” my friend asked. “I personally watch the less evil, BBC and sometimes the new and moderate, Al-Hurra” I answered, and my friend said “ but Al-Hurra doesn’t follow the news as fast as Al-Jazeera does, and their performance in general is still below what’s needed, and I can’t follow the reporters on the BBC, especially when they put a Scottish or an Irish guy to tell the news” I agreed with him that it’s difficult sometime and that we need more options.
Another one started cursing the head of the SCIRI because he promised Iran-in a previous occasion-that Iraq would be responsible for compensating Iran for the damages of the Iraqi-Iran war in the 1980's.

Then came the big question “who do you think is going to lead Iraq in the transitional phase? And will that leader be one of the current members of the GC”? This question was directed to me. I said that I don’t think that the future president will be chosen from inside the GC and I asked my friends back "if you were to choose your president from the GC, whom would you elect”? They all agreed that Adnan Pachachi would be the best available choice in such circumstances. As a matter of fact, I share the same opinion because this man is acceptable to many Iraqis due to his moderate attitudes and clean background and he has no militia or the kind of followers that can abuse their man's power to harm others, break the law or have illegal advantages.
When I said goodbye to my friends I sensed some optimism inside me when I realized they are paying more attention to the future and were not fooled by the Arab media to act only in response to emotions.

- posted by Omar @ 19:22

[Charlespg]

this is a tempest in teapot and a waste of time

[ZULU]

"Can anyone imagine a WAC of 1945, or a WAVE of 1965, acting in this manner? I can't. Because WACs and WAVEs were not only members of the American armed forces, which responsibility brought its own demands in terms of dignity and bearing; they were women. They apparently did not think they had to prove they were men, or men at their worst. I've never seen evidence to suggest the old-time WACs and WAVEs had to delve down into some coarse and vulgar part of their nature to fit in, to show they were one of the guys, as tough as the guys, as ugly at their ugliest."

The fruits of NOW and the other feminazis.


Truely and well said. I agree with everything Noonan said, about the part involving Bush PERSONALLY apologizing for the misdeeds of a few.

This is a war.

Things like this happen on ALL sides and in ALL conflicts. As Ms. Noonan so aptly points out, the difference between THEM and US, is WE don't do this and WE punish the few of us who do it. THEIR punishment should be adequate and THAT should be conveyed to the Iraqis.

[ZULU]

Sorry, should have read:


"Can anyone imagine a WAC of 1945, or a WAVE of 1965, acting in this manner? I can't. Because WACs and WAVEs were not only members of the American armed forces, which responsibility brought its own demands in terms of dignity and bearing; they were women. They apparently did not think they had to prove they were men, or men at their worst. I've never seen evidence to suggest the old-time WACs and WAVEs had to delve down into some coarse and vulgar part of their nature to fit in, to show they were one of the guys, as tough as the guys, as ugly at their ugliest."

The fruits of NOW and the other feminazis.


Truely and well said. I agree with everything Noonan said, EXCEPT the part about Bush PERSONALLY apologizing for the misdeeds of a few.

This is a war.

Things like this happen on ALL sides and in ALL conflicts. As Ms. Noonan so aptly points out, the difference between THEM and US, is WE don't do this and WE punish the few of us who do it. THEIR punishment should be adequate and THAT should be conveyed to the Iraqis.

[AmericanInTokyo]

We need a two pronged approach.

We need aggressive criminal investigation, punishment of wrongdoers all the way up the ladder if need be, announcements worldwide to that effect (particularly to the Arab world), a cleaned slate for the USA, and then, case closed.

These crimes are unacceptable. I will not engage in rationalizing them away like some others.

However, and at the same time, we need to AGREE with the liberals that it is a HORRIBLE situation. Agree aggressively. Constantly. Keep up the agreeing. Keep agreeing all the while, starting to spin this argument into a debate over the deeper causes of the travesty, that this is all due to Clinton's ridiculous and careless military vision and the weakened force he created, not to mention, the situation of unprofessional women in the military being promoted through affirmative action rather than on real merits, another byproduct of the liberals, Clinton and political correctness. And the decay of contemporary American values due to liberal rulings, music, filthy TV, terrible public schools, lack of accountability and personal responsibility, all liberal societal cancers. In other words, perform an "aikido flip" of this whole situation in favor of returning to a more traditional US military that was respected under the days of Ronald Reagan and a more conservative and moral America. Why not turn a negative into a positive?

[alloysteel]

Does college hazing include getting sodomized with chemlights and broomsticks these days?

Yes it does, and more frequently than you might imagine. There was a big blowup about a high school football team, in Pennsylvania I think, where the response was to suspend the entire team and discontinue the part of the PE program connected with football. And that only came to light because of injuries incurred in the activities. If there are no broken skin or obvious injuries, often the incidents go totally unreported, and a code of silence surrounds the circumstances.

[Charlespg]

I would court-Marshall the the solders for the sodomy acts and the pictures but the rest of the stuff is just stupid
and whats wrong with using harsh measures to get information from terrorists? one of the fears I had from the start after 911 is that The US can not be Ruthless enough to win and its seems that I maybe right ,
and who cares what the the liberals think they want to see America lose and the Arabs hate us anyhow

[Cap'n Crunch]

I really enjoy reading Peggy Noonan also and I think she has it right on the money.

Personally I think we've grabbed ahold of the tar baby, though I think this fight has been brewing for many years and will not end until either Christianity or Islam is the conquerer.

[cookcounty]

"disheartened" is exactly how I feel. And really ticked at the incredibly sick morons that did this. How did we get this way?

[cookcounty]

I don't get the part about Bush "not apologizing". Has he not apologized? He said "I'm appalled...." which is considerably stronger than the much weaker "I'm sorry."

[Interesting Times]

Aikido bump...

[jjm2111]

Pooh, I got to hand it to you. You were an MP right? I don't understand how some people equate the sodomy w/ college hazing. Just disgusting.

Soldiers should be honorable. This wasn't.

[Poohbah]

Pooh, I got to hand it to you. You were an MP right?

Nope, an air wing Marine.

I don't understand how some people equate the sodomy w/ college hazing. Just disgusting.

Even fraternity hazing isn't as bad--it's voluntary. This wasn't.

Soldiers should be honorable. This wasn't.

Tell that to the sickos praising this to the heavens...