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An Open letter to President Bush (End run vs. Outsourcing)
Me | Me

Posted on 04/09/2004 12:22:04 PM PDT by Havoc

Dear Mr. President,

You don't know me, nor do I expect you to. But I'm one of those voices out here in the ether that actually did vote for you. I'm not one of those seminar caller types nor a Democrat pretending at being a republican to subvert the party faithful in dishonest fashion because their ideas aren't popular enough to win them anything. No, I'm a life-long republican who cherishes the memory of Ronald Reagan and who thought highly of you right up to the time you sunk a knife in my back economically.

Sir I understand it's a hard job being president. I also understand that in IT my job causes me to have to think on my feet and respond to an everchanging environment just to keep it. And while I was busting my behind for a company I happened to love doing a job I happened to love, you decided it's a good thing to do an endrun around equal protection and hand my job to a Mexican worker at 1/3 of the rate I'm being paid. Sir, Retail employees get paid more than that Full time and they're earning below the poverty level. The Job I hold for the moment requires a lot of hard work and problem solving skills, it requires good customer care skills, and it requires a long knowledge of Computers and software I didn't get from a degree but from practical experience.

I worked long and hard for years looking for the break that would get me in the door with my current employer. And I currently have a carreer with them. Or had, rather. I've worked for EDS for nearly 4 years. I will lose my job just short of that anniversary or just after it depending on how the breakdown happens.

I have a handicap that keeps me from driving a car. Not an official handicap, because it's so rare a problem that 1/2 of 1% of Americans have the condition so it doesn't rate being called what it is. I'm a blip on the screen. But, it means I have to live close to my employer and sometimes rely on others to help me get things done. I've lost everything and put my life back together 3 times in 15 years sir. And having just accomplished it again after 4 years with my employer, your policy has killed any protection I might have otherwise enjoyed from having my job destroyed by foriegn competition. And it puts me right back on the brink again. Sir, if I don't stand a chance of winning, it isn't competition - it's fish in a barrel. Where is my equal protection under the law?

The "competition" didn't get hired because of race or creed; but, because of national origin. They got hired because their cost of living is low enough that they can be paid sub-poverty wages to do my job. They are taking my job because they aren't constrained by the laws we have in this country to protect us and preserve our liberties. Lower cost of living, and no laws to constrain them. See, we used to have what was called ANTI-DUMPING laws on the books before Nafta to prevent the subversion of our economy by those who would attempt to compete on an unfair basis and put American firms out of business. We aren't a global economy, the globe is not the United States of America. They don't respect our rights, our Constitution, our laws or ourselves. The average citizen of the world might; but, we aren't dealing with them, we're dealing with the leaders who have their boots on the neck of the citizen of the world.

It seems today that I have to be a Mexican to get a fair shake in America. There are some 8 million of them here illegally as a tax on our system and working here taking jobs that Americans can do; but, which apparently, nobody wants to offer a fair wage for as long as they can get slave labor off the books. That isn't enough though. We need to employ More workers from Mexico, India, China.. As long as we're doing it, sire, why not be obvious and lets put Sally Struthers on the TV to advertise IT Jobs for the people under repressive regimes in africa who can live on 52 cents a day, "the price of a cup of coffee." I don't care what color their skin is, No citizen of the United states could live on that and shouldn't be asked to compete with it. It's too blatently obvious that it's unfair. And that seems to be why it's "good for us all".

Your policy sir. It's you on the tube telling me it's good for me to lose my job to a Mexican worker outside of our system and in a manner with which I cannot compete. There isn't a job comparable to it here that I can take to make up the difference cause those are being outsourced too. Outsourced. How about endran. Because sir, that is what is happening - it's an end run around our system - around our rights, our laws, our constitutional provisions and protections. Your policy has relieved me of my job without due process. It tied my hands before I had a chance to respond. And so many businesses are being forced to do the same thing, that I don't stand a chance any more than those earning 3 times what I do in the same field who have lost their jobs already and have had to take 11k a year Retail jobs just to eat while their houses go up for sale.

I don't have a degree. I don't get retraining. I just get to lose my job at the whim of your policies and will likely lose more than that in the end. You see, I bought a new home too - a year ago. This job made it possible for me to do that. And as with my Job, I had to get a huge break to be able to pull it off. I've been behind you and a cheerleader of yours since I first heard you speak. I understand that the tanking economy isn't your fault. I understand it isn't your fault we were attacked. I understand and agree with pretty much everything you've done to date, sir. This however is in my mind beyond sickening. It is a betrayal of myself, my coworkers and every other hard working IT worker, Auto worker, etc that has lost their job due to this. It is a betrayal by their government and their employer. And it's a distrust you've earned by subverting them and me. For me, it's not just my Government, it's my own party.

Now I've heard all the arguments for outsourcing and all the copout phrases about what we do about companies that have outsourced to the US. Tell me, sir, how many of them outsourced to do an endrun around their system of government, their constitution, their laws and their workers. How many of them outsourced to us to produce goods for their home market. That isn't an argument that flies with me in the face of doing an endrun around us. They've built plants in our land and are working within our market, within it's rules, within our laws, within the constraints of our constitution and are paying a competative wage. Our companies are doing the opposite. And any way you cut it, it is economic and constitutional tyranny. I'm not a single issue voter sir, until that single issue is my life and livelihood.. until members of my own party call me a robber and a thief for expecting to keep my job when I've worked my behind off to do so.

I did it right. I've busted my backside under an ever increasing workload, kept my promise to my employer and my client. Never missed a metric, never dropped the ball for either of them and have always exceeded expectation as a member of one of the best teams on this planet in my humble opinion. My job is gone not because we didn't produce and not because either couldn't afford it; but, because Mexicans work cheaper and don't have our protections, laws, rights or constitution. I have a strong work ethic and a loyalty to my company that even now makes me shudder to say a bad word about them. I have no illusions; but, I was raised that if you do your best it pays off. I know now that if you do your best, you get kicked in the teeth just as hard, and if you get ahead a little bit, the government will be there to kick you back down. I appreciate how hard your job is. Mine is pretty dang hard too. But how about you and everyone in government work for $600 a month from now on like the Mexican workers replacing us. How about you all work for the income you're forcing me into. If it's good for us, it should be good for you too. You, and all the ivory tower types in our party that hiss at me for being upset over losing my job and wanting to defend myself. How would that be, sir? I'd just as soon see little Tommy Daschle and Ted Kennedy go fly a kite as hear them spout one more offensive evil lie about you. But I'd just as soon, too, see you join them holding the string if you're gonna ruin me and tell me it's good for me. How about if we just outsource your jobs too - oh, wait, that would be unconstitutional too, wouldn't it.


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: bush; endrun; immigration; newslavery; outsourcing
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To: Toddsterpatriot
Works for corporations too.

Not really. Smith's "the butcher, the brewer or the baker" are the REAL people.

Corporation is a legal CONSTRUCT and a curtain behind which the actual players can hide to avoid personal responsibility. This can be beneficial for the society as the incorporated people might experiment without much fear.

If the general benefits from this immunity are larger than the losses from unprosecuted errors/fraud then the allowing, maintaining, protecting or even subsidizing by the taxpayers makes sense. If corporations become the tool for looting, treason and impoverishment then it is time to end the shell game.

381 posted on 04/11/2004 8:02:08 PM PDT by A. Pole (<SARCASM> The genocide of Albanians was stopped in its tracks before it began.</S>)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
Sounds like a small step to outright govt ownership. I think that is calling for socialism.

Every system if abused can lead to its demise. Stupid capitalists can sell the rope to their enemies to be hanged. (As Lenin noticed). When people abuse freedoms it leads to the restrictions. That is why we have traffic police and speeding tickets.

382 posted on 04/11/2004 8:06:13 PM PDT by A. Pole (<SARCASM> The genocide of Albanians was stopped in its tracks before it began.</S>)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
So, we should seal the borders? Allow no foreign goods?

Uh, did IQ's just drop sharply or were you expecting we're all stupid in the U.S.? Foreign trade and legal immigration pre-existed outsourcing and "free traitorism". I don't think anyone here is advocating doing away with trade (as opposed to free trade or outsourcint) or *LEGAL* Immigration. You guys have to float to these extreme arguments out of absurdity to beg the notion that the world will end if you can't get your way. The world didn't end prior to these corrupt anticonstitutional policies, and it isn't going to end if we get rid of them either. You'll probably jump up and down and screem about not being able to make profit in the illigitimate fashion you are now; but, I'm sure you'll get over it. I bet you cheat at computer games don't you..

383 posted on 04/11/2004 8:36:23 PM PDT by Havoc ("The line must be drawn here. This far and no further!")
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To: A. Pole
That is the whole point of corporations to begin with. These people have been seeking refuge behind the protections of incorporation and think themselves above the fray, above the law, above common decency... When people surrender all notions and pretense of ethical behavior and, like lawyers, concern themselves no longer with what is right but rather with what can be argued on appearance to be legal, abuse becomes the standard.

Corporate America long ago had it's conscience surgically removed so they could treat people like cattle at the direction of superiors who had no conscience to begin with. With no conscience, you have no standard of patriotism or personal responsibility. This is how you get employers complaining about the dissappearance of employee loyalty whilest they fire people before those people can retire in order not to meet their own agreed to responsibilities to their workers.

I think any number of us here could write a book on the pretensious and scurilous nature of the modern corporation from personal experience - yet we continue to let it go on.
Because we've let it go on so long, now we're in the new mess - subversion of our economy and constitution in the name of "higher" profit. Outsourcing isn't being used to create profit where none exists, it's being used to destroy profit margins of domestic companies which are not outsourcing while further padding/lining the pockets of firms that have more money than they know what to do with already.

I've no illusions that we're going to see economic despots get religion; but, This is our country. We as citizens make the rules for how Companies can function. This is our system of government and our nation collectively. It's not a corporate theocracy in which we worship at the alter of a few mogul/tyrants. And it's time that crap ended.
384 posted on 04/11/2004 9:07:07 PM PDT by Havoc ("The line must be drawn here. This far and no further!")
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To: Mr. Bird
Bush Senior sunk himself. His "read my lips" fiasco started it, his executive order ban on firearms finished him. Perot was no more than icing on the cake already baked.
385 posted on 04/11/2004 9:21:51 PM PDT by dcwusmc ("The most dangerous man, to any government, is the man who is able to think things out for himself.)
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To: ARCADIA
Your laundry list of government interference in the economy is one MAJOR reason for outsourcing. Government IS the problem, just not quite the way some here are alleging. Thus, Bush CAN do something to improve the economy: Get FedGov the hell out of the way. Stop regulating us to death. Abolish the alphabet regulatory agencies. Et cetera.
386 posted on 04/11/2004 9:27:14 PM PDT by dcwusmc ("The most dangerous man, to any government, is the man who is able to think things out for himself.)
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To: discostu
I don't know where you get this notion that corporations and business only exist for profit. Profit is the primary motive; but, the furthering of societal goals is a rather important part of business. We don't build M1A1s merely for profit nor do we make cars merely for profit. We build them because we have to have them to function. Everyday people have sense enough to reailize that if you're manufacturing tanks while we're at war and your only concern is what you're getting paid, you're pretty much a piece of crap. I think we generally would say that is mercinary. I feel like I almost have to give you a lessen in ethics and morality so that you can get the point - and that is it's own commentary.
387 posted on 04/11/2004 9:43:52 PM PDT by Havoc ("The line must be drawn here. This far and no further!")
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To: XBob
That's one heck of a great illustration LOL. Love it.
388 posted on 04/11/2004 9:50:56 PM PDT by Havoc ("The line must be drawn here. This far and no further!")
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To: ARCADIA
try this:

Guy: I need a new job, my employer is going to
outsource my position. I'm a brain surgeon.

Facility: sorry, we're looking for a janitor and you're over qualified.

Guy: Can I train on-the-job? I really need the job.

Facility: Sorry - you would just leave if another brain surgery job came along. Can't use you, I've got some mexicans applying. Get out of here. My answering service in India will contact you if any jobs show up which you qualify for.
389 posted on 04/11/2004 10:20:33 PM PDT by XBob
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To: Havoc; discostu
I don't know where you get this notion that corporations and business only exist for profit. Profit is the primary motive; but, the furthering of societal goals is a rather important part of business.

When people who don't own the corporation get the government to force the corporation to do what they want, rather than what the owners want, that is socialism.

I guess if it gets you what you desire, that's ok, but it's still socialism.

Start your own company get your own investors and do all the good for societal goals you desire. Just keep your hands off other peoples property.

390 posted on 04/11/2004 10:34:32 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot
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To: Havoc; ARCADIA; XBob; A. Pole
I love that you guys think the government can fix the "fair trade" problem or the outsourcing problem. Government will always lose to the corporations. And if the government ever wins the collateral damage will hurt far more of the little people than will be helped.

You socialist leaning types need to get the evil corporations on your side.

You need to decide in which order of importance the following rank.

American worker income. American corporate profits. Government revenue from corporate taxes. Total government revenues.

When you figure out how these rank then we can talk about how to work with the evil corporations to actually improve these.

391 posted on 04/11/2004 10:49:46 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot
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To: dcwusmc
Abolish the alphabet regulatory agencies. Et cetera.
(Note: I am not sure which list you are referring to so I will answer in general)

I think we are pretty much in agreement on that. We have a strange and unhealthy business environment today. But, why not; when people are seemingly free to pass whatever environmental and social regulation farts into the room without the slightest apparent consequence.

We decide to curtail logging to save the spotted owl and furniture prices go down as our factories move overseas. We pass additional emissions regulations and prices drop yet again. Our juries award huge settlements liberally without any notion of how that will impact them and our economy.

No matter how stupid we act we feel no pain. We are doing damage, but the feedback mechanism is no longer there. Our consumer products are coming from factories located beyond the reach of the goofy regulations. So we remain ignorant until the damage becomes extreme; until we have destroyed our domestic businesses.

If this were a contained economy, then people would immediately see prices rise, shortages, and product cancellations every time they added yet another stupid regulation. On the other hand they would see the benefit of reducing excess tasking. As a first step in improving our domestic business environment we will need to scale back our dependence on imported products.
392 posted on 04/11/2004 10:50:23 PM PDT by ARCADIA (Abuse of power comes as no surprise)
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To: stig
The guy works for EDS, they have been importing Asians for years and they were already outsourcing in the late 1990s. This guy had to be blind not to see the writing on the wall. Now he's complaining??

Well, let's see, I think I've been over this earlier. Let's revisit, shall we. Four years ago I got sick with pneumonia. I was a good salesman at the time; but, the business I worked for got sick about the same time I did. It took six months fighting everyday for a few more minutes here and there till I couldn't stand and a few times collapsed. I wouldn't give up. But within a few months of working part time bad hours on commision and making nothing - I was tapped. By that time, business had pretty much died and I couldn't live on it because there was no traffic coming through. I was also getting written up monthly because I was sick and therefore not performing with no traffic.. Go figure.

Long story short, My Motorcycle - my only transportation - died. The engine seized at 70. Thirty Days later, my home which I hadn't been able to afford to insure burnt to the ground. If you want a complete picture, I lost my girl while I was in the hospital so it was a real happy time.

When I started at EDS it was an answer to a dream because I'd been wanting for 10 years to work for them. They opened a new facility to support Delphi Automotive so that Delphi could seperate it's support desk from GM. For the first time, I was in a carreer, not a swingshift hope to get buy job. I saw this as the company Ross Perot put together. Ross treated his people well - like human beings. But as with every other case in modern history, when the founder goes and a board takes over, people stop being human beings and start being a constraint on how much more money could be made if only..

You Pile work on people till they strain under the load and work them like dogs till they burn out.. Do you know they actually know standardized burnout rates for how long they can work a person under gruelling conditions before they snap or leave or both. They get real itchy comin up on that time frame. Corporate america believes in buying a race horse and running it full tilt till it drops dead. Compensation is a properly worded bit of psychobabble slap on the back to make you understand "we appreciate you [for earning us all this money and putting up with our abuse with no real reward for all the extra work]."

I'll digress back to my point. EDS looked like a sound place to go at the time. I'd do it again in the same circumstance because I trusted in the integrity of a name that had earned that integrity under Ross to the extent that not a single person I've worked with in the last 4 years that was there when Ross still ran it could find a solitary bad thing to say about him. Not one. And that is monumentally difficult to find.

EDS has been the fullfillment of a dream in more ways than one. They've treated me like gold up to now. And my local bosses are still trying to look out for us while our coporate heads have sold us out. It feels like good cop bad cop. Or Mom soothing your nerves while Dad accepts the check to sell you into slavery. We've been through hell and back for our client and our company for 4 years. And the thanks we got for doing it for them both is to be disowned because we're Americans.

I thought highly of both companies when I hired in. I see a number of things Delphi could do to fix a lot of problems they have; but, I'm not sure at this point that you can really tell Delphi anything anymore than you can tell EDS anything. Nor am I motivated at the point of losing my job to be of any more help to the guy cutting my throat than I have to be. Delphi is self destructing at the direction of a few people IMO. I don't know that I can really say more than that due to confidentiality; but, Their own move to Mexico In my opinion will buy them time and time only.

We at the Helpdesk already know that our function for Delphi is pretty much mission critical. And from experience dealing directly with Mexico, the move to Mexico will be nothing short of an epic disaster. I don't think I was dumb to go there. I think I was wise in the matter given the facts on the ground. But corporations just can't seem to help themselves - their best product regardless of the name on the door is something you used to only see in combat hardened veterans and the desperately poor: The thousand yard stare.

393 posted on 04/11/2004 10:51:49 PM PDT by Havoc ("The line must be drawn here. This far and no further!")
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To: A. Pole
Not really. Smith's "the butcher, the brewer or the baker" are the REAL people.

So, if these REAL people outsourced their work you wouldn't complain about it? That would be OK? It's only when a corporation does it that the practice is evil?

394 posted on 04/11/2004 10:52:53 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot
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To: stig; Havoc
379 - "The important thing to remember is that the economy is secondary to our security as a nation. "

Without a good economy, there is no security.

Terrorism kills thousands.

A bad econcomy kills/disables millions and disables our country and our military.
395 posted on 04/11/2004 11:11:49 PM PDT by XBob
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To: Toddsterpatriot
I love that you guys think the government can fix the "fair trade" problem or the outsourcing problem. Government will always lose to the corporations. And if the government ever wins the collateral damage will hurt far more of the little people than will be helped.

You socialist leaning types need to get the evil corporations on your side.

Government regulation is most often used as a corporate tool. Whether it is public pork, the protection or recognition of assets, or in the creation of entire markets, it is businesses which seek out government intervention. Where would the insurance industry be without mandatory liability coverage? Where would the Banking industry without FDIC? Where would our housing industry be without Fannie Mae and Ginie Mae? Or, our medical/pharmaceuticals business without Medicaid and Medicare?

If there be socialist then look for them in the Boardrooms rather then the production floor. Workers are not asking for a handout, they are not claiming ownership over jobs, and they do not want your property. All they want is the opportunity to market their skills; something which cannot be realistically done when the relevant jobs are located beyond their reach.
396 posted on 04/11/2004 11:16:54 PM PDT by ARCADIA (Abuse of power comes as no surprise)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
391 - of course, corporate profits are most important, people and country matter nothing.

Send me the money to buy a share in my corporation to ban ToddsNoPatriot.

I WANT MONEY !!!!! MONEY MONEY MONEY !!!!!
397 posted on 04/11/2004 11:21:09 PM PDT by XBob
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To: Toddsterpatriot
When people who don't own the corporation get the government to force the corporation to do what they want, rather than what the owners want, that is socialism.

What, you mean like getting them to stop using slave labor? Child labor? Sweatshop labor?... We as the public have every right to put restrictions on you because as in any other area of life, people time and again cannot be trusted to do the right thing. There have been more than a few good books written and movies filmed on such issues. You act like it's never been done before and that no right exists to put limits on the behavior of people. That isn't socialism, that is civility.. ensuring that society has some measure of protection from those in our midst who would use use and or abuse us.

There used to be a time in this country when people would ask of themselves what the rammifications were on other people before they made weighty decisions. Today that has been replaced by concern solely over money. Personally, if I have to live under constant threat of ruin by tyrants, I'm better off to shred my SSN, sell what I have and find a nice piece of moutainside where no one will bother me. When you can't get civilized conduct from what purports to be civilization, it ain't worth it. If you can't provide security in a society, It offers nothing. We might as well all be living on a mountainside, we'd at least know we could rely on ourselves. It's a pretty deep subversion when you teach people that the things they've setup in society to secure themselves can't be counted on. It's nothing short of pseudo organized anarchy. And that is why it leads to revolution. But that is also why we make laws to prevent such subversions.

You know what Tojo, Mussolini, Hitler, Ghengis, Attilla, and Napoleon all have in common - they all thought they were doing something for the greater good. And they even said as much. It's their actions and results that tell us otherwise, just as now with free trade.

398 posted on 04/11/2004 11:22:56 PM PDT by Havoc ("The line must be drawn here. This far and no further!")
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To: XBob
I think you inhaled a little too much rocket exhaust. You're making less and less sense.
399 posted on 04/11/2004 11:27:46 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot
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To: Toddsterpatriot
Government will always lose to the corporations.

That's a pretty big mouthful there, considering the Government is US. You're essentially stating you're at war with the average citizen and that the citizen must lose in order to keep you in posh surroundings. That isn't capitalism. It isn't Republicanism. It's dictatorial feudalism. As I've noted before, ya'lls statements would make great campaign commercials for the other side - or good reasons for a revolt. Take your pick.

400 posted on 04/11/2004 11:28:44 PM PDT by Havoc ("The line must be drawn here. This far and no further!")
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