FRESH CLUE SHOWS TURIN SHROUD MAY BE GENUINE BURIAL CLOTH OF CHRIST

The Mirror ^ | April 2, 2004 | David Edwards

[Hammerhead]

If Jesus rose again after 3 days, then how is that long enough to make a 2000 yearl old impression in cloth????

[plain talk]

Well, that's quite a stretch. I'd like to believe that, but isn't it possible, nay likely, that a given shroud from a given time period was used to bury someone other than Jesus?

I thought of the same thing. I'm not sure there's a "mountain of evidence" that it is Jesus' burial cloth. However, if the time period and location can be validated as 1st century Palestine/Israel area, the fact that the image process is so mysterious and unexplainable makes the theory that it is Jesus' burial cloth a plausible theory. Of course, if one just believes Jesus was just another man crucified (and not the son of God), then this would not be near enough evidence.

[Badeye]

I keep an old saying from the Civil War in mind.

"We placed our faith in God, but we kept our powder dry"

As I said, I don't besmirch anyone's belief in this matter, I'm just highly skeptical of all religious institutions raised up by Man.

With reason....

[Alberta's Child]

Thanks for the link. I found this point particularly intriguing:

Little-to-no anatomic detail is visible unless you get further than 15 feet away from it. If someone HAD "painted" it, he/she would have had to have used a paintbrush over 15 feet long.

[mtbopfuyn]

"Ladies and gentlemen", he added, "scientific honesty compels me to say that this man was raised from the dead!"

Hogwash! Your scientist is the hoax. He examines a cloth and proclaims someone rose from the dead? An image on a cloth does not equal arisen in scientific terms. One can not conclude A equals D without determining B and C.

[RS]

"Even those scientists who insist that it was a forgery are at a loss to explain how someone in the 12th century could possibly have created something that human beings cannot even create today."

The technique of making concrete was known to the Romans, then "lost" for hundreds of years.

As for how it could be created today ? - perhaps the answer would be to use the paints available at the time, store it in containers made of certain wood and metal which oxidizes, take it out into certain light and humidity conditions, perhaps wash it numerous times with water of different chemical properties in a specific order, hang it up allowing incense to permeate it, subject it to various temperatures from fires .... after hundreds of years of this, it may look exactly like the shroud.

[True-Stu]

I Do read my bible and am quite familiar with the passage cited. It actually supports the shroud theory rather than disproves it. Historians have repeatedly stated that a common practice of the age was to initially drape the body with the body lying on a long cloth that was then wrapped over the head and laid down the length of the torso to the feat. This is precisely what the Shroud of Turin shows.

[mtbopfuyn]

If anything were to survive a cremation, it would be teeth.

[RS]

"Point #2: I find it extremely unlikely that a forger in the Middle Ages would have known such minute detail about human anatomy that he would have been able to replicate the results of this reflexive action."

Does this reflex keep those thumbs pinned AFTER the nails have been removed and AFTER the person has died and his body been washed ?

[nonomous]

Interesting comments, thanks.

While stationed in Germany during the mid 70s, I visited Turin. The Shroud was on public display and I got to walk-by and view it. A very impressive sight. Highly recommended.

[Jaded]

John 20:6-7 :: New International Version (NIV)
6Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen.

John 20:6-7 :: New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6 And so Simon Peter also came, following him, and entered the tomb; and he saw the linen wrappings lying there,
7 and (1) the face-cloth which had been on His head, not lying with the (2) linen wrappings, but rolled up in a place by itself.


John 20:6-7 :: King James Version (KJV)
6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.


John 20:6-7 :: American Standard Version (ASV)
6 Simon Peter therefore also cometh, following him, and entered into the tomb; and he beholdeth the linen cloths lying,
7 and the napkin, that was upon his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but rolled up in a place by itself.

John 20:6-7 :: Darby Translation (DARBY)
6 Simon Peter therefore comes, following him, and entered into the tomb, and sees the linen cloths lying,
7 and the handkerchief which was upon his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded up in a distinct place by itself.


Which one?

[EAGLE7]

Yes it's possible. However, the wounds seen on the figure in the shroud are consistent with the Gospel accounts of the wounds inflicted on Jesus, such as the spear wound on His side.

[freebilly]

perhaps the answer would be to use the paints available at the time, store it in containers made of certain wood and metal which oxidizes, take it out into certain light and humidity conditions, perhaps wash it numerous times with water of different chemical properties in a specific order, hang it up allowing incense to permeate it, subject it to various temperatures from fires .... after hundreds of years of this, it may look exactly like the shroud.

The Shroud of Turin Conspiracy Theory....

[Cicero]

The Catholic Church takes no official position as to whether or not the Shroud is genuine. I think they have taken the usual position for such apparent miracles, that it's permissible for the faithful to regard it as real but it's not required for them to do so.

The 1988 carbon dating tests were almost certainly a hoax perpetrated by a couple of atheistic scientists who were determined to "prove" that the Shroud was not genuine.

There's no way to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is genuine. But the tests continue to suggest that it comes from the Holy Land and dates to about the time of the Crucifixion.

On top of that, if it's not genuine, it's very, very difficult to suggest how on earth medieval artisans could have faked it. Personally, I think it's real, but it's not a matter of faith.

[mtbopfuyn]

Anatomically correct but the front and back are different sizes. The measurements aren't consistant meaning each side was made separately. As to your #2, I find it hard to believe people before the 20th century were as ignorant as they're made out to be.

[the OlLine Rebel]

This is my biggest doubt, if you will. I think it's entirely possible the shroud is from the region and time-period of Jesus, but maybe not actually Jesus.

It seems silly to me that every1 - faithful and cynics - seems to base its legitimacy purely on its age. Cynics are desparate to point out it's not that old, while faithful are desparate to find it IS that old. As if that's the only pointer to it being the shroud of Christ.

As it is, I'm open to the possibility.

[cyncooper]

Well, that's quite a stretch. I'd like to believe that, but isn't it possible, nay likely, that a given shroud from a given time period was used to bury someone other than Jesus?

The significance of the stitching is placing it at the time of Jesus. But there is an image on the cloth that is seemingly miraculous and that would be the indication it was not used to bury someone else.

Despite the professor's assertion that we could all make our own shrouds of Turin, why hasn't one other example of such an image on a cloth turned up? Why hasn't yon professor done an experiment proving his theory? Until someone demonstrates how the image was transferred and that it is a natural phenomenon they cannot state how it came to be.

Personally I do believe the Shroud of Turin is the burial cloth of Christ. Especially since I learned last year of the head cloth that has been kept in Spain all of these years.

[cyncooper]

What is your theory of how the image came to be on the cloth?

[the OlLine Rebel]

Besides the fact that DNA from 100 years apart of indirect relatives is a shot in the dark (to wit: that Jefferson nonsense), Jesus was not actually the biological son of Joseph (and hence David). He may only have been the bio son of Mary, whose lineage is, of course being a woman, ignored. In any case, being the actual Son of God, it's possible there is no real DNA to go on, anyway.

[mtbopfuyn]

The technique of making concrete was known to the Romans, then "lost" for hundreds of years.

There is also a flesh tone color in stained glass that has been lost. It's like Granny's muffins you remember from your childhood but she took the recipe to her grave and no one has been able to make them since. Things are lost or forgotten every day.