Gibson's passion film 'too Catholic'

Belfast Telegraph ^ | 19 March 2004 | Alf McCreary

[presidio9]

THE controversial Mel Gibson film 'The Passion of the Christ' has been dismissed by the Evangelical Protestant Society as a 'Catholic' interpretation of events which "does not present the Gospel".

Wallace Thompson, secretary of the Evangelical Protestant Society, said the film displayed "an un-Biblical fixation on Mary, the mother of Jesus. None of this should surprise us, for both Mel Gibson and Jim Caviezel, who plays the part of Christ, are enthusiastic devotees of the traditional teachings of the Church of Rome."

He further claims that Mel Gibson "belongs to an ultra-conservative Catholic group which does not recognise the reforms of Vatican II, and celebrates Mass in Latin".

Mr Thompson says that "this malign influence of Rome ought to cause all evangelical Protestants to reject The Passion of the Christ" and refuse to be swayed by the subtleties of the alleged arguments in favour of it.

Sadly, however, it will be welcomed and praised by many who ought to know better."

Mr Thompson also says that the film is "extremely violent", and that "anyone who watches it will be shaken and possibly terrified by its graphic and bloody scenes."

[TRY ONE]

"Apparently you don't believe in the Gospels. She is alive! See for yourself:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.(John 3:15-16) [See also:1 Cor. 15:22; Rom 5:12-21, among others]
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You are correct, she IS alive with Christ --- but she is NOT HERE (on earth) interceding on our behalf and neither is Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Daniel, Apostle John, Peter, Mary, etc.

So why pray to any of "them"? Just pray to Jesus who IS here!

[TRY ONE]

1) "Just wanted to explain the Catholic HAIL MARY...
The second half is a petition to MARY (Blessed among ALL women)..to pray for us sinners NOW and at the hour of our death hmmm I can't think of a better saint to pray for me at my death.."
___________________
I see no scripture that says that saints not on this earth intercede on our behalf. While I think Mary WAS one of the greatest women who ever lived, if I were to chose a "not present saint" to pray for me it would be John the Baptist:

Matthew 11:11 - Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

But for Interceding Prayer, I ask my closeth Believer friends and Pastor who are still walking around in flesh and bone to pray for me.
In the meantime I pray directly to Jesus Christ! __________________________________________

2) "Everything you believe seems to be based on TIME..."

My belief has nothing to with "TIME". Jesus Christ + nothing else is my belief --- that the atoning death of Jesus on the Cross gives me Eternal Salvation. Mary, John the Baptist, Abraham, Moses, Paul, ets, are all good folks but "yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he (them)".

[Thorin]

Frankly, I don't think Salve Regina needs your prayers. I know I don't want them.

The anti-Catholicism that characterizes some fundamentalists is mind-boggling. I was amazed when I first discovered its existence, during the '96 campaign, when a number of people told me they would vote for Bob Dole over Pat Buchanan because Buchanan (unlike Dole, the future viagra salesman) wasn't a "Chrsitian." I'm no longer surprised by such ignorance, just appalled.

[Bob Eimiller]

You still don't get it... but we are all children of God and Jesus said believe as little children...hmmm I guess only the scholarly, who have the intelligence and a lock on the intent of scripture will inherit the Kingdom of God.

Ever wonder why Jesus spoke in parables? I don't think the parsing of words is God's intent.

After you complete your quest to figure out the mind of God, make sure you explain everything to all of us who are incapable of experiencing any kind of revelation from the Holy Spirit. I suppose the Church for the first 30 years between the Ascension of Jesus and the first book of the New Testament was totally devoid of any intelligent worship.

I also suspect that Paul's Epistles were published immediately for scholarly discourse and interpretation... Hmmm come to think of it...wasn't it the 16th century when the printing press was invented? I wonder what happened to all those poor souls that were just plain dumb and all wrong about their faith for 1600 years..hmmmm

Thank goodness for all the smart God experts like you that we have today.

[AMDG&BVMH]

"contributed to this schism, the same one who was guilty of selling indulgences which we know now you reject as a Catholic today?"

the Council of Trent was the Reformation of such. Luther indeed went into schism.

[BibChr]

Thanks for your answer. Are you thinking that I was saying that the Tabernacle was God? I'm sorry if I was that unclear. I'm saying that it, like so much of OT worship, was symbolic and foreward-looking, and that what it symbolized was the presence of God which would ultimately be fully realized in Messiah Jesus (Isaiah 7:14; John 1:14).

The very word translated "Tabernacle" is mishkan, which comes from the root shakan, "to dwell." It thus really means "a dwelling-place." (The non-Biblical word Shekinah comes from the same root.) God Himself explains the significance in Exodus 25:8-9:

And let them make me a sanctuary , that I may dwell (shakan) in their midst. 9 Exactly as I show you concerning the pattern of the tabernacle (mishkan), and of all its furniture, so you shall make it.

Jesus abode very briefly within Mary, and little is made of that period. The glory and presence of God was seen in His incarnate life and ministry, as John says in John 1:14, where I believe he alludes to the mishkan by using the Greek skenoo, which has similar consonants. That's what he has in mind.

Dan

[OLD REGGIE]

The anti-Catholicism that characterizes some fundamentalists is mind-boggling. I was amazed when I first discovered its existence, during the '96 campaign, when a number of people told me they would vote for Bob Dole over Pat Buchanan because Buchanan (unlike Dole, the future viagra salesman) wasn't a "Chrsitian." I'm no longer surprised by such ignorance, just appalled.

You speak as if there is no such thing as anti-Protestantism. Why, all the Catholics on this thread are kind, sweet, loving, and oh so holy. I am amazed that you don't see it on this very thread.

Predjudice is not a one way street my friend.

You were amazed in 1996 at signs of predjudice? I must be slightly older than you because I remember a Catholic being elected President precicesly because of the predjudice of Catholics. Are you shocked?

This is from a recent issue of USNews & World Report Magazine. It talks about religion moving in on politics.

U.S. News 8/21/00

Eisenhower and Kennedy were operating in an America where many Protestants, Catholics, and Jews regarded each other as threats to the public good. Stirring up such feelings was dangerous.

In 1960, 78 percent of Catholics voted for Kennedy and 63 percent of white Protestants for Richard Nixon. Lurking behind those numbers was much ugly anti-Catholic and anti-Protestant feeling.
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I'm sorry the article no longer seems to be avaible on line. If you wish I'd be glad to freep mail it to you.

[B-Chan]

Did Jesus' Deity exist before Mary?

Your question is nonsensical. Poor BibChr — you're laboring under both a semantic and a temporal error!

1. Semantic: You are using “deity” as if it were an aspect of Jesus Christ, as if deity was a property possessed by or related to Christ. This is not only heretical (Nestorian), but semantically incorrect. “Deity” is not something that Jesus “has”; it is What He is. Deity = Jesus. The Man, Jesus, cannot be separated from the Second Person of the Trinity; He has no deity, he is Deity. To ask if Jesus' Deity existed before Mary is like asking if Jesus existed before Jesus — it makes no sense.

2. Temporal: Deity is God. As such, it is eternal — outside of time and space. To ask if Jesus' Deity existed “before” Mary or anything else makes no sense; something that is eternal exists identically at all times and in all places. Jesus Christ was, is, and forever shall be; he never began to exist, nor will He end. he simply is. The physical fact that something Eternal was born and has a mother is beyond human reason, which is why the Church has always referred to the Incarnation as a Mystery. We need not understand it; we need only accept it on faith.

Don't feel too badly about this. Confusion about the nature of Jesus Christ is only to be expected. As the Person at the intersection of the Eternal with our world of space and time, our Lord and His Nature are things we limited humans will never fathom completely. We must simply accept Jesus for Who He is: a Person, fully human, yet fully divine; Eternal God, born of a human mother, who is our Lady.

[OLD REGGIE]

Here, folks, is a bald faced lie. People constantly challenged the authority of the Vicar of Christ, and were not killed.

Here folks is the truth. People who challenged the Popes were also killed.

So, in your blind hatred, your lie has a truth of sorts to it. In excommunicating the unrepentant heretic, the Pope condemned him to eternal death, but left his earthly body untouched and unharmed in the hopes that he would repent and be saved.

One of your biggest lies. The Pope wasn't the one who lit the fire or personally declared the "heretic" guilty. This was left up to the Inquisition, formed by the Pope.

The fact that the "heretic" was then handed over to the civil authorities to be killed left the Pope with clean hands?
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Let's see what Thomas Aquinas had to say about the matter.

Aquinas.: SMT SS Q[11] A[3] Body Para. 1/2

I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.
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For over a thousand years, the Roman Catholic Church hunted down "heretics" and killed them. Some of these "heretics" were people with strange beliefs. However, as we shall see later, many of them were Bible-believing Christians.

This will make the defenders of the "one true...." angry.

[Desdemona]

Wonder if you have any indignation towards that Pope of that time who contributed to this schism, the same one who was guilty of selling indulgences which we know now you reject as a Catholic today?

Let's straighten out this error that seems to persist.

Indulgences have NEVER been sold. Never. It has never been the teaching of the church that they are to be, either. No bishop has ever said that. The whole confussion came when a single priest, who was a Dominican, was giving a homily in a part of what is now Germany where a new Cathedral was being financed. He told the congregation that their ancestors in purgatory would be helped by their contributions. Somehow it was construed that the church validated the selling of indulgences, which was not true. The only way souls in purgatory can be helped is with prayer, and those cannot be sold.

[Desdemona]

Protestantism did not happen in vacuum my friend or in some far off provence without any Catholic help.

You are correct. It started about 200-300 years before Luther as people began to be seduced by the message that there was an easier life out there than the church taught. Luther just put a name and face on a trend that had been building steam for a long time.

[Desdemona]

In Matthew 17:3, Elijah and Moses appeared on earth in triumphant heavenly form to Jesus, Peter, James, and John, and conversed with Jesus. “Suddenly Moses and Elijah appeared to them; they were talking with Him.”

Good point. I forgot about this. Note to self: study the Luminous Mysteries.

[BibChr]

I don't want to wade through an essay by you.

Did Jesus' Deity exist before Mary?

(The fact you can't simply answer the question is most revealing. Any Christian could.)

Dan

[Desdemona]

You might, rather than being emphatic about calling people liars, ask them simply for proof of their suppositions.

[B-Chan]

1. In a Christian monarchy, where Church and State are bound together, heresy against the Church is treason against the State. Therefore, in such a situation, heretics are traitors, and traitors deserve death.

2. The Inquisitions were never empowered to burn or otherwise kill anybody. Such sentences were carried out by the secular authority of the State.

3. The Inquisitions and Christian Monarchy were good things, and should be revived.