Posted on 03/19/2004 9:59:58 AM PST by presidio9
That is correct!
Mary shares in Christ’s redemptive work by her consent to God’s plan (Luke 1:38) and by her lifelong walk with Christ to the cross (Luke 2:35 and John 19) and her continued cooperation in heaven (Revelations 12). Who more than Mary participated in the sufferings of Christ (Colossians 1:24, Romans 8:17 et al.) by the "sword that would pierce her soul" (Luke 2:35)?
We're discussing two very different concepts here. You are alluding to divination; catholics believe in the intercession of the Communion of Saints.
In praying to the saints, one is not seeking knowledge about the future, but rather asking for their prayers. James 5:16 states: "The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." The saints in heaven are not dead; they are more alive than we are. Scripture never says that those who die in the Lord are "dead." If we can ask one another to pray for each other, why can we not ask those already in the presence of God to pray for us? Is this not what Revelations 5:8 speaks of when it tells us that the 24 elders offer the bowls of incense that are the prayers of the saints? Also, if "communicating" is condemned, why does Jesus communicate with Moses at the Mount of Transfiguration in Luke 9? Deuteronomy 34:5 tells us explicitly that Moses died. Hebrews 12:1 speaks of a great cloud of witnesses. Scripture tells us that Christ is the vine and we are the branches. I know of no Scripture that says that earthly death separates us from that vine.
The second half is a petition to MARY (Blessed among ALL women)..to pray for us sinners NOW and at the hour of our death hmmm I can't think of a better saint to pray for me at my death..especially if I'm not in any condition to pray...(for example) maybe hitting a tree at 40 miles per hour...I will be stone dead in 7/10 of a second! Not much time to pray I suspect.
Another problem with and I'm sure our Lord loves you just as much as he does any Catholic or ANY Human for that matter... Everything you believe seems to be based on TIME...D you realize time doesn't exist in eternity...? hmmm think about that.. and when Jesus dies on the cross..IN ETERNITY which is where GOD is right now..isn't He?...
God is seeing His SON die... RIGHT NOW! ..remember HE sees the beginning from the end and the end from the beginning... so...as HIS SON dies for our sins, GOD sees us..(Humanity) all die at the exact same time... all he sees is JESUS dying for our sins..
Guess what..GOD also sees ALL of HUMANITY rising at the exact same time... hmmm quite profound..but also quite CATHOLIC because people who die before us are prayed for because we...IN GOD"S "TIME" are all dying together... Unless you think HE is looking at HIS Rolex
BTW are all the humans who were born before JESUS in hell? Little unfair..unless you have that answer too....
And... when Jesus was praying and taught us how to pray, was the prayer he was praying for only the people living at that time? or for all Humanity...hmmm I guess praying for the "dead" and the Dead who have, "IN THE PAST" prayed for us ...like my deceased grandmother who prayed constantly for me... meant those prayers are all used up...is that right? hmmm you seem to think you know the mind of GOD.. I'm sorry to have to tell you...you haven't a vapor of the capacity to know anything divine. Accept it.... accept the faith of all Christians and judge not lest...well you know the rest...
The second half is a petition to MARY (Blessed among ALL women)..to pray for us sinners NOW and at the hour of our death hmmm I can't think of a better saint to pray for me at my death..especially if I'm not in any condition to pray...(for example) maybe hitting a tree at 40 miles per hour...I will be stone dead in 7/10 of a second! Not much time to pray I suspect.
Another problem with and I'm sure our Lord loves you just as much as he does any Catholic or ANY Human for that matter... Everything you believe seems to be based on TIME...D you realize time doesn't exist in eternity...? hmmm think about that.. and when Jesus dies on the cross..IN ETERNITY which is where GOD is right now..isn't He?...
God is seeing His SON die... RIGHT NOW! ..remember HE sees the beginning from the end and the end from the beginning... so...as HIS SON dies for our sins, GOD sees us..(Humanity) all die at the exact same time... all he sees is JESUS dying for our sins..
Guess what..GOD also sees ALL of HUMANITY rising at the exact same time... hmmm quite profound..but also quite CATHOLIC because people who die before us are prayed for because we...IN GOD"S "TIME" are all dying together... Unless you think HE is looking at HIS Rolex
BTW are all the humans who were born before JESUS in hell? Little unfair..unless you have that answer too....
And... when Jesus was praying and taught us how to pray, was the prayer he was praying for only the people living at that time? or for all Humanity...hmmm I guess praying for the "dead" and the Dead who have, "IN THE PAST" prayed for us ...like my deceased grandmother who prayed constantly for me... meant those prayers are all used up...is that right? hmmm you seem to think you know the mind of GOD.. I'm sorry to have to tell you...you haven't a vapor of the capacity to know anything divine. Accept it.... accept the faith of all Christians and judge not lest...well you know the rest...
Even in the face of Jesus' Passion they can't leave that mess alone. Hey, Mr. Thompson, stuff a sock in it.
I know you didn't mean to do this, but you just proved the correlation from Exodus 40 as Mary being the Ark of the Covenant. Thank you.
I would say for sake of argument, that she is physically dead and spiritually alive. Ecclesiastes deals with that distinction and states that both the spiritually living and the spiritually dead share a common destiny that is an evil to both, that they must bodily die and after that can have nothing more to do EVER in the things that go on under the sun. Period. End of statement. If they can't have anything to do with what happens here on earth, that would include our mumblings and carrying on. They can't get involved. Which literally means you could talk to Mary till you literally fall over dead and the only thing you will have accomplished is to have spent that whole time sinning against God by trying to communicate with the dead. You literally will have sinned endlessly and gotten nowhere in the doing.
Just because she is no longer alive on this earth, does not mean she isn't still worshiping God.
Oh, I in no way disagree on this one. But it has nothing to do with what we have been discussing.
She is among the saints whose prayers are mentioned in Revelation 5:8.
Uhm, you'll need to point that one out and then remember too that we are talking about symbolism in a prophecy. Mary isn't mentioned there. Nor does the prophecy say that saints are either prayed to or that angels are. Remember, it says the angel is involved in this and scripture already has spoken to the idea of praying to angels - a major no no. Interpreting it therefor to say that the angels are being prayed to becomes blasphemy. If the angel is doing the same thing as the elders, then the elders are not being prayed to either. Rightly dividing scripture requires that an interpretation cannot cause God to lie or to contradict himself. That's rule number one. If it does so, it is either bad interpretation or a false prophecy. And we know it is neither.
I would say for sake of argument, that she is physically dead and spiritually alive. Ecclesiastes deals with that distinction and states that both the spiritually living and the spiritually dead share a common destiny that is an evil to both, that they must bodily die and after that can have nothing more to do EVER in the things that go on under the sun. Period. End of statement. If they can't have anything to do with what happens here on earth, that would include our mumblings and carrying on. They can't get involved. Which literally means you could talk to Mary till you literally fall over dead and the only thing you will have accomplished is to have spent that whole time sinning against God by trying to communicate with the dead. You literally will have sinned endlessly and gotten nowhere in the doing.
Just because she is no longer alive on this earth, does not mean she isn't still worshiping God.
Oh, I in no way disagree on this one. But it has nothing to do with what we have been discussing.
She is among the saints whose prayers are mentioned in Revelation 5:8.
Uhm, you'll need to point that one out and then remember too that we are talking about symbolism in a prophecy. Mary isn't mentioned there. Nor does the prophecy say that saints are either prayed to or that angels are. Remember, it says the angel is involved in this and scripture already has spoken to the idea of praying to angels - a major no no. Interpreting it therefor to say that the angels are being prayed to becomes blasphemy. If the angel is doing the same thing as the elders, then the elders are not being prayed to either. Rightly dividing scripture requires that an interpretation cannot cause God to lie or to contradict himself. That's rule number one. If it does so, it is either bad interpretation or a false prophecy. And we know it is neither.
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