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To: BibChr
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us as in a tent...." (John 1:14)

I know you didn't mean to do this, but you just proved the correlation from Exodus 40 as Mary being the Ark of the Covenant. Thank you.

372 posted on 03/19/2004 6:31:30 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
Absolutely no chance of any reference to Mary in that phrase. The Greek eskenosen refers to His body. Read the verse.

Dan

381 posted on 03/19/2004 6:43:07 PM PST by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us as in a tent...." (John 1:14)

I know you didn't mean to do this, but you just proved the correlation from Exodus 40 as Mary being the Ark of the Covenant. Thank you.

Okay, I'm toeing the line between amusement and irritation at seeing the Scriptures so abused here.

Get a literal translation or go into the original Greek, and you'll see that the words "as in a tent" are an interpolation. They're not an inaccurate one per se, since the original Greek word for "lived" or "dwelt" is skenoo, which can mean "occupy, encamp, or tent," but the interpolation is adding additional emphasis that isn't there in the original. The point of the verse is simply that God became Man and lived as one among us, nothing more.

The fact is that Hebrews 8:4-5 tells us in no uncertain terms that the Tabernacle is meant to be a model of "heavenly things." If you do some study and cross-referencing between the Torah, Hebrews, and Revelation, you'll be able to see the model yourself.

Now, the Ark, and in particular the Mercy Seat that covered the Ark, does have an important role, but it wasn't that of the Messiah's womb. Rather, it symbolizes God's throne.

Consider the placement of the cherubim. Just as we see four cherubim guarding the throne of God in Heaven, the Ark too had four cherubim standing guard over the Mercy Seat of God: The two cherubim built into the Mercy Seat itself (Ex. 25:19-20) and the two larger cherubim statues built into the Holy of Holies, whose wings spread over the Ark and from wall to wall (2 Chr. 3:11-12). This would seem to correspond with John’s description that the four cherubim were both “in the midst of (i.e. “on” or “in the middle of”) the throne and around the throne.”

The suggestion that the Ark somehow symbolized Mary is completely contrived, just as is the suggestion that she was "immaculate" and "without original sin." Leaving aside the fact that she was the recipient of God's blessing and/or grace rather than simply possessing it as a part of her nature, Mary makes a point of calling God her Savior (Lk. 1:47). Unless Mary too needed redemption like the rest of us, she would not have called God her Savior--only those needing saving have a Savior.

The theory that God would not allow His Son to be borne in an "unclean" womb is shown false on three fronts: The first, because Mary, looking forward to the Messiah, was as saved from her sins as those of us who look backwards (in effect) to Him. The second, because by that theory, God would not have allowed His Son to become ritually unclean by coming in contact with the lepers, the dead, menstrating women, whores, Gentiles, and all the rest of the unclean. Yet Jesus was the most tender with the outcasts, the sick, and the ruined.

And the third, and most important, because the Bible nowhere says or even implies that it must be so.

It is not denegrating to Mary to point out that she too needed a Savior, especially when she herself said it. Nor is it to accord her the honor of carrying the Messiah, but not the honor of being the mother of God. God preceded Mary from eternity.

You can argue the semantics of this--Jesus is God, Mary was the mother of Jesus, ergo Mary was the mother of God--but the title, "Mother of God" is putting an emphasis on the wrong person. Remember that to the Jews no son was greater than his ancestors (see Mt. 22:41-46). Thus, the title makes it seem that Mary is greater than Jesus and through Him, God.

And before you object that Catholics don't really mean it that way, just consider all of the icons that show a glowing Mary holding an infant Jesus--who comes off as the greater in those images? Or consider the rationale for asking Mary to pray for you, that Jesus will do as His mother asks--who is calling the shots according to that philosophy, Mary or God?

Mary, Daughter of God would be a more appropriate title, if understood in the sense that all of the Redeemed are the Sons and Daughters of God through their adoption in Jesus Christ.

Mary had a very special, very specific role to play: To bear and raise the Messiah. She fulfilled both well, and is truly to be honored. However, there is honor, and then there is ascribing sinlessness and omniscience (the latter being necessary if she were to actually be able to hear and respond to the prayers of millions of Catholics at a time), both divine traits, to anyone other than God. The latter is actually an insult to Mary's memory, not a blessing.

394 posted on 03/19/2004 7:35:16 PM PST by Buggman (President Bush sends his regards.)
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