Gibson's passion film 'too Catholic'

Belfast Telegraph ^ | 19 March 2004 | Alf McCreary

[presidio9]

THE controversial Mel Gibson film 'The Passion of the Christ' has been dismissed by the Evangelical Protestant Society as a 'Catholic' interpretation of events which "does not present the Gospel".

Wallace Thompson, secretary of the Evangelical Protestant Society, said the film displayed "an un-Biblical fixation on Mary, the mother of Jesus. None of this should surprise us, for both Mel Gibson and Jim Caviezel, who plays the part of Christ, are enthusiastic devotees of the traditional teachings of the Church of Rome."

He further claims that Mel Gibson "belongs to an ultra-conservative Catholic group which does not recognise the reforms of Vatican II, and celebrates Mass in Latin".

Mr Thompson says that "this malign influence of Rome ought to cause all evangelical Protestants to reject The Passion of the Christ" and refuse to be swayed by the subtleties of the alleged arguments in favour of it.

Sadly, however, it will be welcomed and praised by many who ought to know better."

Mr Thompson also says that the film is "extremely violent", and that "anyone who watches it will be shaken and possibly terrified by its graphic and bloody scenes."

[ET(end tyranny)]

According to the Council of Trent, Chapter II (page 77)

CHAPTER II. On the reason of the Institution of this most holy Sacrament.

And He would also that this sacrement should be received as the spiritual food of souls, whereby may be fed and strengthened those who live with His life who said, He that eateth me, the same also shall live by me; and as an antidote, whereby we may be freed from daily faults, and be preserved from mortal sin.

preserve - 1. to protect from harm, danger, etc. 2. to keep from spoiling 3. to prepare (food), as by canning The rest of the definition according to Webster's New World Dictionary, pertain to food, meat and game preservation.

[Fury]

And He would also that this sacrement should be received as the spiritual food of souls, whereby may be fed and strengthened those who live with His life who said, He that eateth me, the same also shall live by me; and as an antidote, whereby we may be freed from daily faults, and be preserved from mortal sin.

I believe based on the previous documents that the Church does not claim that receiving the Eucharist preserves from mortal sin by just eating a wafer and drinking wine - and that's it. If that was the case, a logical conclusion would be that people could partake of the Euchraist ONE TIME and could then believe they would never need to do so again.

If you read Church council documents after the Council of Trent, with said Church documents building on one another, I believe that the picture is fairly clear.

[OLD REGGIE]

No that is wrong. Mary intercedes to Jesus. SHE certainly knows she is not God. SHE certainly knows who her Son is!!

When will the Bible be corrected as follows?

AMDG&BVMH 1:1
For there is one God, and there are two mediators between God and men, the man Jesus and His Mother, Mary.

It has been "revealed" the following is a mistranslation.

1Timothy 2
[5] For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

[OLD REGGIE]

de Montfort's book, or any other devotional book, is not more important than Sacred Scripture. If it were inconsistent with Sacred Scripture, it would not receive an imprimatur and would not be recommended.

St. Louis De Montfort's Prayer to Jesus

O most loving Jesus, deign to let me pour forth my gratitude before Thee, for the grace Thou hast bestowed upon me in giving me to Thy holy Mother through the devotion of Holy Bondage, that she may be my advocate in the presence of Thy majesty and my support in my extreme misery. Alas, O Lord! I am so wretched that without this dear Mother I should be certainly lost. Yes, Mary is necessary for me at Thy side and everywhere that she may appease Thy just wrath, because I have so often offended Thee; that she may save me from the eternal punishment of Thy justice, which I deserve; that she may contemplate Thee, speak to Thee, pray to Thee, approach Thee and please Thee; that she may help me to save my soul and the souls of others; in short, Mary is necessary for me that I may always do Thy holy will and seek Thy greater glory in all things. Ah, would that I could proclaim throughout the whole world the mercy that Thou hast shown to me ! Would that everyone might know I should be already damned, were it not for Mary! Would that I might offer worthy thanksgiving for so great a blessing! Mary is in me. Oh, what a treasure! Oh, what a consolation! And shall I not be entirely hers? Oh, what ingratitude! My dear Saviour, send me death rather than such a calamity, for I would rather die than live without belonging entirely to Mary. With St. John the Evangelist at the foot of the Cross, I have taken her a thousand times for my own and as many times have given myself to her; but if I have not yet done it as Thou, dear Jesus, dost wish, I now renew this offering as Thou dost desire me to renew it. And if Thou seest in my soul or my body anything that does not belong to this august princess, I pray Thee to take it and cast it far from me, for whatever in me does not belong to Mary is unworthy of Thee.

O Holy Spirit, grant me all these graces. Plant in my soul the Tree of true Life, which is Mary; cultivate it and tend it so that it may grow and blossom and bring forth the fruit of life in abundance. O Holy Spirit, give me great devotion to Mary, Thy faithful spouse; give me great confidence in her maternal heart and an abiding refuge in her mercy, so that by her Thou mayest truly form in me Jesus Christ, great and mighty, unto the fullness of His perfect age. Amen

Is De Montfort praying to Jesus as the mediator between man and Mary?

[SoothingDave]

that she may be my advocate in the presence of Thy majesty

Is De Montfort praying to Jesus as the mediator between man and Mary?

Can you read?

that she may appease Thy just wrath, because I have so often offended Thee

that she may contemplate Thee, speak to Thee, pray to Thee, approach Thee and please Thee

Again, can you read? It is clear that Jesus is the superior one here, the one who requires appeasement and pleasing, the one with majesty and wrath, the one who is offended.

SD

[Petronski]

Again, can you read?

Can he? Probably. Does he choose to actively reflect what he has read? Nope.

[AMDG&BVMH]

"Is De Montfort praying to Jesus as the mediator between man and Mary?"

No, he is asking Jesus to help him love His mother more.

[Havoc]

Need anyone say more?

[OLD REGGIE]

Can you read?

that she may appease Thy just wrath, because I have so often offended Thee

that she may contemplate Thee, speak to Thee, pray to Thee, approach Thee and please Thee

Again, can you read? It is clear that Jesus is the superior one here, the one who requires appeasement and pleasing, the one with majesty and wrath, the one who is offended.

I can read well enough to see you pick out the "standard disclaimers" and overlook the passages where it is obvious that he is "asking" Mary to "save" him from Jesus and, in the process, giving himself "entirely" to Mary. (Is "entirely" a relative term?

Yes, Mary is necessary for me at Thy side and everywhere that she may appease Thy just wrath, because I have so often offended Thee; that she may save me from the eternal punishment of Thy justice, which I deserve; that she may contemplate Thee, speak to Thee, pray to Thee, approach Thee and please Thee; that she may help me to save my soul and the souls of others; in short, Mary is necessary for me that I may always do Thy holy will and seek Thy greater glory in all things

And shall I not be entirely hers? Oh, what ingratitude! My dear Saviour, send me death rather than such a calamity, for I would rather die than live without belonging entirely to Mary.

And if Thou seest in my soul or my body anything that does not belong to this august princess, I pray Thee to take it and cast it far from me, for whatever in me does not belong to Mary is unworthy of Thee.

Consider further:

17. For to be right and good, worship of the Mother of God ought to spring from the heart; acts of the body have here neither utility nor value if the acts of the soul have no part in them.AD DIEM ILLUM LAETISSIMUM ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X ON THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION (Vatican Web Site)

Oh, I know, it's a translation error.

Let's look at another, better translation.

For to be right and good, worship of the Mother of God ought to spring from the heart; acts of the body have here neither utility nor value if the acts of the soul have no part in them. Provided Courtesy of: Eternal Word Television Network

There, that's better.

(It isn't necessary to play your "Latria", "Hyperdulia", "Dulia" word games. I am thouroughly familiar with the technical distinctions.)

[OLD REGGIE]

No, he is asking Jesus to help him love His mother more.

Yes, with his entire being. He is also asking Mary to save him from the wrath of Jesus. IOW he expects Mary to overrule Jesus.

[SoothingDave]

I ... overlook ... passages ... and ... play ... games

That's more like it.

SD

[AMDG&BVMH]

"Need anyone say more?"

It appears you misread my statement. He is asking Jesus to help him love His mother more than he already loves her, NOT to love her MORE than Jesus! I did not think that could be misconstrued. ;)

[AMDG&BVMH]

"IOW he expects Mary to overrule Jesus"

No she would not be overruling Jesus. That is not what the prayer is asking. If Jesus responds to His mother's intercession for the one praying, it would be His decision. She can not make Him do anything that He does not decide to do! deMontfort knew who God is, and who Mary is.

If you do not want to ask for Mary's intercession, then don't. No one is forced to.

There must be a lot of misinformation provided about Catholicism. Even when we tell you what we believe and what we are taught to believe, you still do not want to accept it, rather go by your own interpretation of texts. What you are disputing however, is not actual Catholic belief, but a strawman of your own creation.

I admire your diligence in pursuit of the truth, but you are in a narrow alley going nowhere on this issue, because Catholics do NOT worship Mary. Your thinking so does not change that reality.

[OLD REGGIE]

I admire your diligence in pursuit of the truth, but you are in a narrow alley going nowhere on this issue, because Catholics do NOT worship Mary. Your thinking so does not change that reality.

I think we can agree the RCC does not teach the worship of Mary. In actual practice some Catholics do worship her.

You have been very civil in our discourse and I don't wish to carry this subject beyond this point.

[AMDG&BVMH]

"I think we can agree the RCC does not teach the worship of Mary"

Agreed. And I am sure we agree on more than that! ;)

May God Bless you.

[Havoc]

Like I said, need anyone say more. It isn't in scripture. It has nothing to do with our salvation. Yet this nonsense posing as doctrine is the basis for the further paganization of the Roman Church and the basis of a religion of Mary all it's own. That is the danger of playing games with philosophy. And Rome will have much to answer for. Read any good prophecy lately?...

[AMDG&BVMH]

" It isn't in scripture. . . Yet this nonsense posing as doctrine is the basis for the further paganization of the Roman Church and the basis of a religion of Mary all it's own. "

Devotional prayer is not Scripture, and not on the same level as Scripture. It is not doctrine and not on the same level as doctrine. It is a voluntary aid to devotion, that is all. No one is required to use deMontfort's reflections. It is not infallible. It is not part of the deposit of the faith.

The only type of prayer or devotion that Catholics are required to participate in, is the liturgy -- the Mass. The Mass is totally Christ-centered. We worship Our Lord Jesus Christ, on our knees. I have been to a few Protestant services, and the Mass is more Christ-centered and more centered on the worship of God than those others (IMHO of course). We have the Word, the readings from Scripture; we have the homily; we have hymns; but we also WORSHIP Christ. On our knees. Every Sunday, at least.

There are some new-ager types, feminist types, who are trying to make a new pagan religion while pretending they are Catholics. But they don't engage in true Marian devotion; rather, earth worship and other abominations that we wouldn't care to contemplate. ;)

The Church will never separate Mary from her Son, and will never forget which of the two is God.

[Cronos]

I think we can agree the RCC does not teach the worship of Mary

True.

[Cronos]

The Church will never separate Mary from her Son, and will never forget which of the two is God.

Ping again. I've given up on #1376

[Petronski]

Pearls before swine.