Gibson's passion film 'too Catholic'

Belfast Telegraph ^ | 19 March 2004 | Alf McCreary

[presidio9]

THE controversial Mel Gibson film 'The Passion of the Christ' has been dismissed by the Evangelical Protestant Society as a 'Catholic' interpretation of events which "does not present the Gospel".

Wallace Thompson, secretary of the Evangelical Protestant Society, said the film displayed "an un-Biblical fixation on Mary, the mother of Jesus. None of this should surprise us, for both Mel Gibson and Jim Caviezel, who plays the part of Christ, are enthusiastic devotees of the traditional teachings of the Church of Rome."

He further claims that Mel Gibson "belongs to an ultra-conservative Catholic group which does not recognise the reforms of Vatican II, and celebrates Mass in Latin".

Mr Thompson says that "this malign influence of Rome ought to cause all evangelical Protestants to reject The Passion of the Christ" and refuse to be swayed by the subtleties of the alleged arguments in favour of it.

Sadly, however, it will be welcomed and praised by many who ought to know better."

Mr Thompson also says that the film is "extremely violent", and that "anyone who watches it will be shaken and possibly terrified by its graphic and bloody scenes."

[broadsword]

He might as well kiss the necronomicon.

BTW, isn't that one of the sacred Books of Havoc, or is it in the Havocian Apocrypha? (May the prophet's name be praised!)

8o)

[Thorin]

The question you raised was answered by St. Augustine in the Donatist controversy. A priest's sinful acts do not render the sacraments he performed invalid. The reasoning, if I recall correctly, went like this: God is acting through the priest when a sacrament is conferred. If the priest's sinfulness prevents the grace from being conferred, then God is not omnipotent, but limited by the sinfulness of the priest. The priest's sins are imputed to the priest, not to his congregation.

[wolfman]

The Papal Encyclicals correctly points out that Protestants turn to the Bible alone to determine whether or not a doctrine is true. Nevertheless, it also confesses "This is just the reverse of the Catholic’s approach to belief. As the Catholic sees it, he must accept God on God’s terms and not his own. It is not for him to ‘judge’ the divine message, but only to receive it. Since he receives it from a living, teaching organ, he does not have to puzzle over the meaning of the revelation because the ever-present living magisterium [teaching office] can tell him exactly what the doctrine intends."

Again, Catholics turn to the Church because they have been promised (by men) that the Church exercises an inerrant authority to properly interpret the Bible.

The Catholic Encyclopedia asserts that God’s grace is a supernatural power that "makes it possible for them [Catholics] to place [perform] acts directed toward eternal salvation." And further, the "means of salvation given by Christ" are defined specifically as "the sacraments and sacrifice [Mass]" of Catholicism.

Biblically however, (as it relates to salvation) grace is not a divine empowerment of men to help them earn their own salvation; rather it is a divine disposition toward men that offers them salvation entirely as a free gift of God’s mercy.(Romans 3:24)(Romans 6:23; cf., 5:15-16)(Titus 3:5) as just a few examples

Religious arrogance and personal pride are both major stumbling blocks for people when they are offered the unmerited and undeserved Gift of God. As a Roman Catholic for 20 years, I was proud to have been born into the "one true church" which gave me the opportunity to merit the graces needed for my salvation. As Catholics, we enjoyed "the fullness of salvation" because we were the only church that had Jesus in the Eucharist and an infallible pope. This sense of pride is still common among Catholics who love to boast about their church tradition! They stubbornly reject the Gospel of grace because of an unwavering loyalty to their religion.

This behavior is not surprising since religious duties often appeal to man’s pride. However, the Gospel brings offense. It strips people of their pride in human accomplishment and removes every possibility of self-deliverance from sin and punishment. The Jewish leaders rejected Jesus as their Messiah because of their religious pride.

This is why I think, by the way, though, Jesus said that the prostitutes will go into the kingdom of Heaven even sooner than the religious types of His day because they saw no need for God’s matchless grace (Matt. 21:32)

Grace is God's unmerited favor, Grace is God's gift of eternal life.. meted out once in a lifetime to each who'll receive it for the forgiveness of all of our sins past,present and future. That grace is communicated to those who are in desperate need no matter of their lifestyle. Come as you are is what Jesus tells us. Grace is available to those that humble their hearts before God completely, truly believe and receive their pardon. But there’s a another aspect of this transaction. Once we’ve received God’s grace, we are never quite the same again. God gives us a new nature with new desires, new aspirations, so that for me, I could not go back to my former lifestyle. God had given me a whole new set of inner priorities. That is grace. Not to say we will not continue to sin, we all constantly sin in these bodies as sin is simply our wretched unholiness compared to the perfect holines of Christ. To think we can remember and list our sins individually is the height of folly.

[Fury]

Havoc writes:

"...You guys just don't get it. ..."

Who is "you guys"?

[Fury]

Havoc writes:

It's prophetic; but, it isn't Christian..

And neither is calling people liars, and making personal comments about folks - all the way around.

[Fury]

Havoc writes:

And both betrayed you a liar...

I see Havoc has called you a liar twice.

Have any success getting that .mp3 concerning the Pope praying to Mary for his Salvation. I tried again last evening - no success. Of course, the accusation, represented as fact is out there. It's up to you, us to provide the documentation. That sort of approach to defending one's assertions is unfortunate.

[SoothingDave]

You guys just don't get it. Christianity is about SPIRITUAL warfare - not physical. And spiritual don't mean a battle of philosophies. That's why that picture rubs so many of you raw. But it's all about worldly Ecumenism isn't it - where you wrap your arms around pagan religions and sing campfire songs for world peace.

Did your Jesus teach you to love your enemies or to despise them?

This, of course, is a fruitless line of inquiry. You claim to have studied Catholicism and yet you display no understanding of it and only contempt for your fellow Christian Catholics. To expect you to show Christian love and empathy for Muslims is not even on your radar.

Flies are not attracted to vinegar.

SD

[Cronos]

Some of the 'truths' of Havoc-uh-Akhbar and his Profit Reg "THERE IS NO CATHOLIC TEACHING WHICH CANNOT BE MODIFIED, "EXPLAINED", OR RE-INTERPRETED AS NEEDED! "

That tells us exactly where they get their "facts" and "proof" from....

[Cronos]

I'm an evangelical protestant, and I didn't think "The Passion" was 'too Catholic.' Sounds like someone was just looking for a reason to criticize the movie.

Thank you. If anything, the movie was too "Christian", hence the attacks by the main foes of Christendom, the libs

[SoothingDave]

Religious arrogance and personal pride are both major stumbling blocks for people when they are offered the unmerited and undeserved Gift of God. As a Roman Catholic for 20 years, I was proud to have been born into the "one true church" which gave me the opportunity to merit the graces needed for my salvation. As Catholics, we enjoyed "the fullness of salvation" because we were the only church that had Jesus in the Eucharist and an infallible pope. This sense of pride is still common among Catholics who love to boast about their church tradition! They stubbornly reject the Gospel of grace because of an unwavering loyalty to their religion.

What, exactly, was the source of your former "religious pride"? Were you proud to have been born in to a Catholic family? Proud that you were smart enough to have been baptised as an infant after having chosen the right family to have been born into?

What, other than "unmerited grace" placed you into the situation whereby you had access to the means of salvation from your very birth?

That you needed an attitude adjustment is not in doubt. That you were unable to see the absolute grace of being given the advantagous position you were born into is not the fault of the Church.

Many people, even to this day, struggle to find and practice the faith, suffering from oppression and a lack of freedom. And suffering from doubts and mental blockages brought about from earlier systems of belief. And yet these can and do find their way to the Church. They certainly don't think they earned their way. Why would you, born into it, believe such a thing?

What other than having been granted an enormous gift from God could explain you having been born a Catholic American?

SD

[Fury]

Havoc writes:

Sin is sin, pet. Scripture tells us that all sin is equal in the eyes of God.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1101337/posts?page=1189#1189

Wolfman writes:

This is not to say that every sin is equally wicked ot God. Scripture teaches that some sins are more evil than others and will be juged accordingly (John 19:11; Matthew 10:15). Jesus taught that there will be degrees of eternal punishment in hell (Luke 12:47-48).,

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1101337/posts?page=1192#1192

The wages of sin is indeed death - there is a difference on opinion on if all sin is equal. I believe Wolfman is correct - all sin is not equal (e.g. "equally wicked in the eyes of God"), and that there is Scriptural basis for that assertion.

[Cronos]

Tough luck, inclusion of all means more than one, Christianity, despite what some may think is not a cult of one, but a religion for all.

[AMDG&BVMH]

"Christianity is about SPIRITUAL warfare "

And the Pope doesn't know that? (He is reported to have done a couple of exorcisms).

The philosophy/theology is important to buttress the truth.

It is the job of the LAYMAN to take up the battle IN THE WORLD.

The Catholic laymen I know do not embrace pagan religions. Do not like silly or ambiguous symbolism. The Reform of the Reform is on, re: Cardinal Raztinger.

The Pope has done a lot to put an end to silliness; but entrenched interests ignore his pronouncements.

There are a lot of things you or I might do differently as Pope; well, we think so, anyway, not having to face that position with all it entails. He is right on where it counts. Pray for him.

[Fury]

Havoc writes:

And here's another one. Boy, just says it everywhere we look.. church law, Catechism, official teaching. We must just all be hateful liars.

I believe the liars comment is a form of a fallacy of presupposition. Oh well.

If we go to the Jack Chick web-site, the source of things Catholic, we see the following quotes Havoc appears to be referring to. Let us take just one for now:

"By the same charity that it enkindles in us, the Eucharist preserves us from future mortal sins." Pg. 352, #1395"

Reading that, I could see how one could come to the conclusion that is proposed by our friend. Here is the entire paragraph:

"By the same charity that it enkindles in us, the Eucharist preserves us from future mortal sins. The more we share the life of Christ and progress in his friendship, the more difficult it is to break away from him by mortal sin. The Eucharist is not ordered to the forgiveness of mortal sins - that is proper to the sacrament of Reconciliation. The Eucharist is properly the sacrament of those who are in full communion with the Church."

A reasonable reading is that the Eucharist preserves from mortal sins as we share more in the life of Christ and progress in his friendship. Indeed, the assertion by some that the Church claims the Eucharist preserves us from mortal sins - and nothing more - flies in the face of the next sentence where "the more difficult it is to break away from him by mortal sin".

It's clear when you read things in context, it's a different meaning. But it requires one to be intellectually honest in making asserting and presenting arguments. Soothing Dave has a good response to these comments as well, and I would reccomend folks read his more recent posts on this thread.

[Fury]

The philosophy/theology is important to buttress the truth.

You used the p word. Incoming!

[AMDG&BVMH]

"The Pope, holy and prayerful man that he is, is far too soft-hearted to his enemies, in my non-ordained, non-consecrated, undoctored and humble opinion. He just keeps turning the other cheek where I would get fed up and chop off a head or two. But then, I am not the Pope and do not have his special guidance of the Holy Spirit."

Pretty good summary. ;) Yet he has taken some very straight-forward steps and courageous actions, as has been pointed out. He has done a lot of good for the Church and the world. The documents he has laid out defend the truth. Too bad so many ignore them.

[AMDG&BVMH]

"Incoming!"

I have to leave in about three minutes. So maybe it will explode and miss the target. ;)

[Cronos]

Salve seems correct -- she pointed out that the attacks seem similar to those launched by the followers of that cultIslam. And whenever we've said that we christianss should not fight as we have to face a common enemy, this is brushed off by the UnholyTRinity. I'm guessing we have a trio of mullahs here.

[Cronos]

where you wrap your arms around pagan religions and sing campfire songs for world peace..

So I'm guessing you don't party on Halloween or burn yule tide logs at Christmas or put up Pagan Trees at that time, or give Easter eggs>?