Blame whom? (A precise damnation of Spain, Greece, and other European appeasers)

Victorhanson.Com ^ | March 14, 2004, 10:00 p.m. | Victor Davis Hanson

[NZerFromHK]

Let me get this straight. Two-and-a-half years after September 11, on a similar eleventh day of the month, 911 days following 9-11, and on the eve of Spanish elections, Al Qaeda or its epigones blows up 200 and wounds 1,400 Spaniards. This horrific attack follows chaotic months when Turks were similarly butchered (who opposed the Iraq War), Saudis were targeted (who opposed the Iraqi war), Moroccans were blown apart (who opposed the Iraqi war) and French periodically threatened (who opposed the Iraqi War).

[proud American in Canada]

"And should America be successful in freeing up the populations of the middle east, what will their response be to the European stance that commerce and cowardice was more important than their liberation?"


Great posts, CD. As an answer to this question--I believe we had a idea of what the reaction will be in the highly-selective looting that occurred when Iraq first fell: wasn't it pretty much limited to buildings associated with the UN, the French, and possibly the Germans as well?

[Dudoight]

"giving Arabs a better perspective on life in their countries (a full belly is less aggressive)"

First of all who is supposed to provide this'better perspective'....fill the bellies? In assessing the 9-11 terrorist's bellies, they were educated, middle class or better...not too hungry. In my opinion, empty bellies has nothing to do with these murderous mentalities. It is an extremist religious warp. Individual freedoms for self-fullfillment is not readily available in the middleeastern principalities. That these countries trail behind the west in standard of living has nothing to do with the west. But they are inculcated with the idea that the west is the cause of any individual shor comings. So....kill the west and take over for Allah.

[MEG33]

How many years has Turkey wanted to join the EU and what was Clinton's stance on that?
What does it matter if Bush encourages admission?The EU ,with France leading, will do as it pleases.

[vanmorrison]

The problem with all of this European anti-US nonsense, and Hansen points this out, is that, for some unfathomable reason, the leaders of OUR COUNTRY have allowed these gutless and ungrateful SOBs to continue to use the blood of American soldiers to protect their sorry asses time and again, with no negative repercussions whatsoever to their security and economic interests. This is what blows my mind!

We Americans have allowed this to happen! We can't blame this on the Europeans. We do this to ourselves. After WWII, we dumped trillions into the European rathole with the Marshall Plan, American bases, and NATO support, and for what? Even now, it is very unlikely that Bush, who at least recognizes this, will remove our troops from our bases in countries that use our forces to protect themselves, but who take big s--ts on the very soldiers who have to die to provide this protection.

Over one hundred thousand American servicemen have died in wars large and small, all over the world, since 1945 to show solidarity with these misbegotten and unreliable allies, whose troops never show up in sufficient quantity to make a difference when the s--t hits the fan and bullets start flying. Yet we continue to provide protection and support to these Quislings over and over and over again. Whose fault is this? "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me!"

...And JohnEffinKerry is ahead in the polls!

[Fiddlstix]

[Frank_Discussion]

"Look at which political groups support the terrorists and their pet dictators, either directly or by default (in other words, hating the U.S. more), and you'll have the beginnings of the truth."

That brings up a couple of points to consider:

1. Putin sacked a big chunk of his cabinet, and is essentially reelected in a landslide. His cronies are almost to a man "former" KGB, as he is.

2. The Spanish socialists just ripped the power from the conservative government of the country. The new socialist president says he's coming to our country to support John Kerry.

The worldwide socialists just made some strides of late...

[proud American in Canada]

"The new socialist president says he's coming to our country to support John Kerry."

Ah, so John Effin' Kerry will at last have something to back up his claim that "world leaders" have "looked him in the eye" and said he's "got to beat" GW.

[MEG33]

We did help Europe,but a stable democratic Europe was better than a communist/USSR controlled Europe.You may not remember the threat of the USSR,but I do.

We helped Europe and we are helping Iraq,for a just government in the middle of that part of the world may encourage others to emulate self governance,representative government,economic stability.

[MEG33]

I forgot to add ,it is time they arm and protect themselves.

[Frank_Discussion]

I actually hope that is the case. It would be evidence of a serious conspiracy on J'Effin's part. If this was one of the "world leaders" he is saying endorsed him, then he might have seen/known of a change in wind for Spain. The new PM was not the leader of Spain at the time...

Collusion, perhaps?

[91B]

Welcome to Free Republic, I am interested in your comments. I think that the exchange between you and Cato Renasci will be very productive as I have long regarded him as one of the most intelligent members of this forum. Currently I am in Qatar, which is a quiet supporter of U.S. efforts in the WOT. This is a very interesting country as only about 20% of the population is Qatari, but because of the enlightened policies of the Emir, there is very little radicalism and Westerners can feel safe in public. There are people here from Bangladesh, Iran, Iraq, Sri Lanka, India and many ohter poverty stricken nations-but most seem to only want the opportunity to work and improve their lives. Frankly, I think that many Islamic governments blame the U.S. and U.S. policy for their own shortcomings and find the U.S. as a convenient target for redirecting their people's wrath.

[norton]

"I suggest you really should become old-school colonialists instead of teaching us about freedom."

I agree with the second part, since Germany 'freely elected' the dictator you mentioned earlier and 'freely elected' the dork running your show today.

However, there are some points where a reasonable man can disagree:

1) If we were looking for a western style democracy we'd just hand them a constitution, simple enough when your tanks are parked out front. Bur, allowing them time to build one of their own is precisely the way we hope to address some of the 'empty belly' issues you and others hold so dearly. It also addresses the state sponsorship of terrorism that we believe is one root of the problem because it gives the people a choice. Just as Germans and Spaniards have a choice to screw up, stand aside, or stand up.

2) If we were looking for an historic empire, you'd be shipping volkswagons over here for free as part of reparations that would never end. (We damn sure would not be planning to remove troops from your backyard just because the locals resented being reminded of their past errors and current incontince.) If we wanted an empire there would not be so much support here for dumping Puerto Rico or for building a wall along the Rio Grande. If we demanded that you (or UK, Spain, or anyone else) agree with our every whim we'd have long ago gotten rid of that pesky bicameral government, checks, balances, and free press; they certainly don't follow along with what 'the evil' George Bush asks of them.

3) Finally, if we fail, we fail. If we do not fail, your ass is covered as a byproduct.

[Stonewall Jackson]

Can you say Munich?

[prairiebreeze]

Prize for stupidest remark I've ever read from you (and there have been several). Your hatred of Bush makes me want to call over and reserve a spot at DU for you. You'd be more at home....

Prairie

[CatoRenasci]

Two points: If you agree with my major premises, that we are in a war, that it is for the Moslems to differentiate themselves and that we must do whatever is necessary to defend Western civilization, then how can you defend an appeasement, law enforcement model? You say that the siege of Vienna in 1683 still sits in your subconscious, but you counsel tactics that would appease the enemies of the West. That, to me, reprenents either cowardice or a profound misreading of history. Those who try to appease tyrants inevitably succumb to them, those who maintain their freedom are those who are prepared to die to defend it.

As to your reasonable question about the Turks, they are a hard case. Since Attaturk, Turkey has sought to be both modern and moslem, with varying degrees of success. The elite is, generally, sufficiently pro-Western that Turkey ought to be part of the European community, but the masses in the interior and eastern Turkey remain at levels that would caution against their inclusion in Europe. And, what is Turkey today encompasses both the heart of the Eastern Roman Empire at Constantinople and areas that were probably not much more civilized today than they were before the Ottoman conquest. I would probably be in favor of dividing Turkey into a European country that encompasses European Turkey and the areas just accross the Straits, and a Middle Eastern Turkey that could remain mired in the 18th century. I'd let the European Turks into Europe, but not the peasant eastern part of the country.

As to making Turkey a state, that is simply silly. We have not, and will not, admit a non-English speaking country to our union. Frankly, the only viable candidates are the western provinces of Canada, and perhaps the maritime provinces (New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland), but not Quebec or Ontario, and, of course, our perennial favorites, England, Scotland, and Wales.

[prairiebreeze]

The new socialist president says he's coming to our country to support John Kerry.

If true, this will play lousy for Kerry except with the far left. Americans are turned off by what Spain has done and by what this socialist fool says he'll do with the Spanish troops in Iraq.

Let him come. Photo ops with Kerry and an elected appeaser ought to be good fodder for the Bush campaign ads.

Prairie

[Tallguy]

We Americans have allowed this to happen! We can't blame this on the Europeans. We do this to ourselves. After WWII, we dumped trillions into the European rathole with the Marshall Plan, American bases, and NATO support, and for what?

2 words: Forward Defense.

[proud American in Canada]

"It would be evidence of a serious conspiracy on J'Effin's part. If this was one of the "world leaders" he is saying endorsed him, then he might have seen/known of a change in wind for Spain."

Now that would be stunning.

Unfortunately, I fear voters will ignore/not understand/not care about it.

[CasearianDaoist]

Yes, I hope that he comes over here and tries, and not only forn the results it would bring here. It will expose even to the Europeans the absolute arrogance of the left and why they should never be close to the reins of power.

[CatoRenasci]

91B, thanks for both your service and your kind words. My own active duty (Field Artillery, USAR) was in the post-Vietnam withdrawal '70s, and my reserve service is long ended, but I am with you in spirit. If you run into my Brother Rat, MG Carl Strock, in Iraq, give him an "Old Yell" for the Class of 1970, VMI.