Blame whom? (A precise damnation of Spain, Greece, and other European appeasers)

Victorhanson.Com ^ | March 14, 2004, 10:00 p.m. | Victor Davis Hanson

[NZerFromHK]

Let me get this straight. Two-and-a-half years after September 11, on a similar eleventh day of the month, 911 days following 9-11, and on the eve of Spanish elections, Al Qaeda or its epigones blows up 200 and wounds 1,400 Spaniards. This horrific attack follows chaotic months when Turks were similarly butchered (who opposed the Iraq War), Saudis were targeted (who opposed the Iraqi war), Moroccans were blown apart (who opposed the Iraqi war) and French periodically threatened (who opposed the Iraqi War).

[CatoRenasci]

The only accurate statement in your post is that it is naive to believe the Middle East will be rapidly democratized.

European whinging over Bush's arrogance has a very tinny, false ring. We tried to build a coalition over Iraq, and were basically presented with the French and the Germans refusal to do anything about Hussein. Because you and the Froggies were too busy profiting from the scum. Your governments would do anything to hurt the United States, and they you lecture us about arrogance? The sheer effrontery is breathtaking.

Europe would be a Soviet colony today were it not for American resolve, American arms, and American willingess to spend the money necessary to have and project military power. Even after we stared down the Communist threat and Eastern Europe was returned to the West, you Europeans couldn't even take care of problems in the Balkans. You had to get us to do it.

You talk about The main difference between Europe and US is the "How", not the "If" is arrant nonsense. The real differences between America and Europe are (1) America has the means to defend our (and your) liberty and Western civilization, and (2) America has the will. With the exception of the British, who can ususally be counted upon, courageous governments in Spain (now chucked out) and Italy, and the Eastern Europeans you Germans so despise, but who know tyranny when they see it, the traditional European powers cower before Islamofascism like sheep. You think that if you appease Islamics they will leave you alone. Fools! They really want to conquer the world for their silly moon god!

As an historian, I was always perplexed by the rapidity with which the Moslems conquered the Christian Near East, North Africa and Spain in the seventh and eighth centuries. Now, seeing European cowardice in the face of a few terrorists, I think I understand: it was the product of wishful thinking, of a refusal to take a serious threat seriously.

[Dane]

I am only here as a Bush-critical lurker, interested in understanding a bit more the mindset of Bush-supporters (since German media and public is rather uni-lateral in their views, which makes it hard to understand from here why Bush is still popular with 50% of the US-population

And to show that you are a modern day graduate of the Neville Chamberlain school of appeasment.

[DonaldDuke]

The Spanish people were against our actions in Iraq, not against terrorism

Ah. Slipped up, did you? The Spanish people are aginst US actions in Iraq, AND the Spanish people is not against terrorism. Sounds like you know them pretty well. See one in the mirror, perhaps?

So, not to be rude or anything, but that 78 votes thing? You taking the fifth or something?

[johnny7]

Wrong again. They faced terrorism and acted to kill the victim rather than the crminal. How you blame Bush for their lack of backbone is beyond me.

[Berliner Baer]

Re: Profitting from Scum: Compare our deals with Saddam in percentage with our economies. Pocket-change. Wasn'ta motive.

I would assume it was even much less than our trade with - or your own country' trade with - terrorist-financer Saudi-Arabia.

You are right about your self-compliments regarding US-resolve on communism and Balkans. Balkans were indeed shameful for Europe and as a Berliner, I am quite thankful for US-troops presence over the decades and never questioned it.

But that can not convince me as an argument to stop me from saying that I find Iraq to have been a mistake, as the coming years will show. I feel even an obligation tell my US-friends when they make a mistake in my opinion. ;-)

And you say you are against "appeasing Islamics". There are a more than a billion Muslim people out there - we can't kill or criminalize them all. We _have to_ differentiate, act with justice and find ways to live together with those who are "good-natured", even they don't want a Western-style democracy, as many apparently. We can't shove our values down their throats by force, they have to appreciate them by heart in order to live them.

[kanawa]

you need to withdraw the reasoning- and propaganda-basis for them, so there won't be as many future terrorists attracted to this evil cause.

Is that a vote for the eradication of Islam?

[Dane]

But that can not convince me as an argument to stop me from saying that I find Iraq to have been a mistake, as the coming years will show. I feel even an obligation tell my US-friends when they make a mistake in my opinion. ;-)

We shall see. I doubt you will be around to say you were wrong when there is a peaceful and prosperous Iraq.

JMO, you will be lamenting the loss of th sweetheart deals you all had with the thug saddam.

[alwaysconservative]

Great article; thanks for posting it! It puts paid to the lie that the left so beguilingly peddles about terrorism. It is heartbreaking that so many young socialists in Spain never learned their history and are willing to return to an appeasement state. Spain was once great, as many other European countries were, but with this misguided vote, they have convicted themselves to following the dictates of the terrorism du jour.

I'll repeat the quote that everyone here is avoiding, because it is both harsh and true: Those who desire security over freedom deserve neither.

[KantianBurke]

You conviently left out the following line:

"They're mistaken of course as the two are connected but that's what they believe."

Schmuck.

[kittymyrib]

All their courageous, ambitious citizens come to the US, legally or illegally. That leaves the wimpy Let-Mama-Government-Take-Care-Of-Me Socialists back home to vote in their worthless countries.

[garylmoore]

Now we've lost a staunch ally in the WOT"

---

Token Force? What ally?

[CatoRenasci]

And you say you are against "appeasing Islamics". There are a more than a billion Muslim people out there - we can't kill or criminalize them all. We _have to_ differentiate, act with justice and find ways to live together with those who are "good-natured",even they don't want a Western-style democracy, as many apparently. We can't shove our values down their throats by force, they have to appreciate them by heart in order to live them.

When the Moslems themselves differentiate between "peaceful" Moslems who are tolerant and content to let the rest of the world be civilized, and Islamofascists who seek to conquer the world for Islam, then I will be be happy to differentiate between them, and assist the tolerant Moslems in exterminating the Islamofascists. However, as long as the "peaceful" Moslems cheer (a la the Palestinians cheering over 9/11) when the Islamofascists attach Western civilization, and as long as they do not help us distinguish between the good guys and bad guys, forgive me for not being particularly careful to distinguish between them.

Either Western civilization is worth preserving or it is not. The choice is simple, and stark. For us, who have to preserve it, and for those who may not be fond of it:

For the West, we must be prepared to use whatever force is necessary to preserve our civilization against those who truly and sincerely want to destroy it. WHATEVER force is necessary. Let that sink in.

For Moslems, who may not like Western civilization, they must decide, knowing that America -- if not you Euro-appeasers -- is serious about defending the West, whether they will help us eliminate the sworn enemies of the West, and learn to live with Western civilization, or whether they will stand with our enemies, and reap the whirlwind.

Frankly, I couldn't care less whether the moslem countries become democratic or not -- I think it would be a good thing, however -- as long as they do not directly or indirectly threaten the West. And that includes trying to obtain nuclear weapons. Like Iran.

[DonaldDuke]

You conviently left out the following line:

Sorry, 78 - but including that line (and the one before it, the one with "signifigant") makes your post complete gibberish. As is, indeed, your whole sorry posting history.

[Tallguy]

What's even more worrisome to me than Spain withdrawing their largely symbolic support from OIF is that two and a half years after 9/11 Al Qaeda is still capable of carrying out such effective operations.

Yes, this act was probably inspired by Al Qaeda. But we don't know if it was in fact carried out by Al Qaeda operatives. Remember that the Spanish Gov't initially asserted that the bombs were very similar to those seized from ETA? Knee-jerk reaction? Possibly not.

Cooperation amongst terrorist cells is not unprecedented. Palestinian terrorist groups regularly 're-flag' when they are splintered by Israeli counter-terrorist campaigns, or infighting among PLO factions.

As a general-rule I would tend to follow the trail established by the physical evidence from the bombing.

[reformedliberal]

My response was to the spam post you have been posting on all the threads related to Spain and the election:
________________________________________________-
I've posted this before and will post again - SPAIN SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO SENT THEIR TOKEN FORCE TO IRAQ!! Al Queda was given an easy means to exploit against Spain and for what? So Bush and Powell could have a talking point? Good going guys! Now we've lost a staunch ally in the WOT

---

Others have taken you to task for it as well.

It isn't as though we haven't all read your opinions about the POTUS and your ideological stance.

Don't try to deflect this as though I responded to something more innocuous or more supportive. We would all respect you more if you at least stood by your postings.

[DonaldDuke]

One for your archive.

Zapatero gives his vote. Does this look like a satisfied customer or what?

[MEG33]

Bush is a leader,he is a moral man,he has a terrific cabinet.When we were hit and 3000 died..he rallied this shocked nation.We were already in a recession and then the economic cost of 911,Homeland security faced us.He said in response to terrorism"We will not tire,we will not falter,we will not fail" He then set about to make it so.

Our economy is improving,unemployment is 5.6%.Our military,along with our allies have accomplished the destruction of Al Queda's safe haven in Afghanistan and the destruction of Taliban rule.Afghanistan is by far a
more backward country than Iraq and tribal fighting persists.The Afghanis are helping with a new push on Al Queda.

The remarkable thing is the friendship between the liberal Blair and the Conservative Bush.Blair has been a stalwart partner in our war on terror and I am grateful.I am also grateful to PMHoward.They have supported us out of conviction,not political expedience.I am also grateful for Poland.I was appalled when Chirac hautily told them to keep quiet.So very French.

I don't mind if you don't want to do as we do.I do mind when you block us from doing what the UN should have done years ago
.Guess who had to bomb Serbia...What good did the UN or NATO do before the killing got going?Who did Europe call?We still have troops there.

We have troops(38,000) in S.Korea and have had for 50 years..They are in harms way.We stationed troops in Europe,aimed missiles toward the USSR to keep them at bay,much to the dismay of the peaceniks who thought we should not do that..even though the USSR was a threat to Europe.The German army and our army seem to get along fine.

President Bush is good leader and a good man.God bless him.May he win a second term.

[Berliner Baer]

When the Moslems themselves differentiate between "peaceful" Moslems who are tolerant and content to let the rest of the world be civilized, and Islamofascists who seek to conquer the world for Islam, then I will be be happy to differentiate between them, and assist the tolerant Moslems in exterminating the Islamofascists.

I agree with you - it is for me as well disappointing and frustrating how little is so far done in the Muslim community to distance themselves from those terrorists and those who preach violence in mosques.

For the West, we must be prepared to use whatever force is necessary to preserve our civilization against those who truly and sincerely want to destroy it. WHATEVER force is necessary. Let that sink in.

What does remind me of? Oh wait: Reminds me of us Germans, Austrian and Polish who defended Europe against a muslim attack in 1683 at Vienna. And that still sits in our subconscience. :-) But the situation is very different today - we have Muslims living in our midst and there is no single Muslim country out to take over Europe, but only a handful of groups to terrorize us.

But what would interest me: How do Freepers view Turkey?

I ask because Turkey wants to become member of the EU (with full rights - they are then like British, French or German). And this is hotly disputed here, as many Europeans view the EU also as a cultural conglomerate ("The West") and that muslim Turkey would not fit in, despite being NATO-partner and close business-partner.

Now Bush pushed for muslim Turkey to become a member of the EU - what do people here think of this? (If Bush is so Turkey-friendly, he should make Turkey the 51st State of the US, but not bully the EU about it)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2564339.stm

[MEG33]

Do you believe the Iraqis would be better off with Saddam and the sadistic raping brothers in charge?Do you think Saddam captured is good?Do you think the Oil for Food program was honestly administered by that great symbol of world government?Think we'll get an audit and see who got what,why out of date food and medicine was bought when the Iraqis were suffering?

We aren't perfect and we make mistakes but we are trying to improve Iraq and doing it with our blood and our money.