ZOT: BUSH Was Wrong

Okay, I've been lurking here for 2 years and finally read something today that made we want to write. First of all, I'm a life long Republican of the Conservative branch. And Bush blew it on the WOT. Sept. 12th he should of declared war on Iran and Pakistan, forget about Iraq. Iran and Pakistan are the ones that came to our country and MURDERED 3,000 of us. Not Iraq, Not North Korea, Not Syria. WE ARE FIGHTING THIS WAR BECAUSE 3,000 AMERICANS WERE SLAUGHTERED ON AMERICAN SOIL. Has everyone forgotten that??? If Bush had went full force into Iran the democratic forces would have rose up and it would now be a democratic nation. If Bush had went full force into Pakistan we would have known about this Nuclear bazarre crap 2 years ago and taken care of it by now. And AlQaeida would have gladly showed up and we could have ground them into dust, with or without the help of the French and Germans. Bush made a critical error in not fighting those wars - one that will someday compare to the decision by Wilson to ignore senior military and NOT go onto Berlin in WW1 and show the locals the pain of true defeat so that they would never want to start a war again.

Okay, I've been lurking here for 2 years

Thahnks for admitting that you are a gutless troll. Lurked for two years without a post?

and finally read something today that made we want to write.

Why not post a link to whatever it was that finally spurred you into posting?

First of all, I'm a life long Republican of the Conservative branch.

Who cares? Do you want a medal or a monument?

And Bush blew it on the WOT.

Looks like he's a doing a darn fine job to me.

Sept. 12th he should of declared war

That's congress' job. Read the Constitution. It's also should 'have,' not should 'of.'

on Iran and Pakistan,

Why? Please explain. Pakistan is a greater threat to India than it is to us, though the unpoliced parts of it next to Afghanistan tend to be trouble spots. It also has a long history of being allied with us, though mostly that was fear of India and the USSR back then that prompted it.

forget about Iraq.

How could we forget about Iraq when we've been at war with it since 1991, since they hadn't lived up to the cease fire? When we say there are terms, we really mean it. Failure to enforce terms would only make us look like a paper tiger and invite attack, just as Clinton's inaction all these years invited 9/11. Bin Laden even said as much. Everyone thought we were spineless chickens.

Even right before this recent invasion of Iraq, Iraq's consulate and diplomats in the Philippines were involved in the murder of a US Green Beret. An Iraqi who later sought refuge in baghdad was involved int he Malaysia meeting where 9/11 and other attacks were planned. Zarqawi, who had also received refuge in Baghdad and got operated on there after he fled Afghanistan, also was involved in ricin production and the assassination of Laurence Foley in Jordan. His associates in Milan, Italy recruited radicals after our invasion of Iraq to fight on behalf of the Iraqi regime though many were somewhat taken aback by the lack of enthusiasm Iraqis theselves showed for supporting the regime against US invasion. Iraq funded Abu Nidal and hosted it for years- as did Libya, Sudan, and others... but Iraq hosted it most recently and there is some evidence an old baathist and Fatah boy Abu Nidal was assassinated to cover up his involvement and thus the Baathist regime of Iraq's involvement- in training hijackers, even some of the hijackers of 9/11, right in iraq using their very own training camp for foreigners.

It will be much easier to topple the Iranian regime by moving in next door to them and turning Iraq into an enviably free society. The Iranian mullahs will not stand long sandwiched between a free Afghanistan and a free Iraq.

Iran and Pakistan are the ones that came to our country and MURDERED 3,000 of us.

Prove it. I've already cited more examples of Iraqi involvement than you have of either Iran and Pakistan. Admittedly Iran is a terrorist state, but still evidence for it and Pakistan being responsible for 911 is incredibly thin.

Not Iraq, Not North Korea, Not Syria.

Why not?

WE ARE FIGHTING THIS WAR BECAUSE 3,000 AMERICANS WERE SLAUGHTERED ON AMERICAN SOIL.

That's the WOT. The war in Iraq is but a part of WOT, and could even be justified without it. We have an obligation to fill with regard to Iraq- failure to deal with it stripped our credibility and gave nations like Libya and Pakistan excuses not to own up to their weapons efforts, and enough self-confidence to ignore US demands. Now that we smacked down Hussein, notice how the bad guys are quickly trying to appease us, insterad of us appeasing them in Kerrylike/Deanlike/Edwardslike/Clintonlike fashion.

Has everyone forgotten that???

Nope. Been talking all about it since it happened, indeed, talking about al Qaeda, Pakistan, North Korea, Iran, Libya, China, and so on long before you even knew there was a problem with them. while you were just lurking for two years everyone here was actively digging up info.

If Bush had went full force into Iran the democratic forces would have rose up and it would now be a democratic nation.

First of all, Bush would have had to convince congress that Iran had to be taken down. He would also have to persuade Tony Blair of that- which might not be easy since it wasn't Iran that was invading other countries and Iran didn't sign a cease fire with us which it broke, as did Iraq. NOt to mention Iran would be hard to take without having both Afghanistan and Iraq first. The Iranians are also much more patriotic than the Iraqis. Iraq was a fabricated country created by the Brits, after all. Iran is an anciant country - known as PERSIA. The people are very nationalistic, very patriotic, and there would be an insurgency the likes of which we will never see in Iraq and in terrain much more difficult to deal with from a military perspective than Iraq. They don't need us to invade to get their country back- they are capable of doing it. They just need support and pressure on their regime, they need to unite together to accomplish the task of freeing their own country, particularly with the US parked all around them and the effect we are having on iran's ability to promote terror abroad.

If Bush had went full force into Pakistan we would have known about this Nuclear bazarre crap 2 years ago

CATCH UP! We DID know about it two years ago. Actually, even LONGER. Didn't you read any of FR's North Korea and Chinagate threads? Where the heck have you been? Two years ago Khan was forced to 'retire' because the Bush admin sent an envoy to Pakistan to inform them of 'how it was going to be.'

and taken care of it by now. And AlQaeida would have gladly showed up and we could have ground them into dust,

Already being done. And effectively, too.

with or without the help of the French and Germans. Bush made a critical error in not fighting those wars -

*sigh* Armchair general...

one that will someday compare to the decision by Wilson to ignore senior military and NOT go onto Berlin in WW1 and show the locals the pain of true defeat so that they would never want to start a war again.

You are about as sane as Wesley Clark.

Where've ya been? ...

1996 : (SENATOR JOHN KERRY MEETS LIU CHAOYING, VP OF A SUBSIDIARY OF CHINA'S GOVERNMENT OWNED CHINA AEROSPACE CORP & DAUGHTER OF A CHINESE MILITARY OFFICIAL, TRADES FAVORS FOR CASH, PLUS CHINA GETS MISSILE TECHNOLOGY) In 1996 Kerry met with Liu Chaoying, the daughter of a powerful Chinese military official who also doubled as vice president of a subsidiary of the state-owned China Aerospace Corp. Before the meeting, held in Kerry's Senate office, Liu's sponsor, Johnny Chung, made clear she was interested in getting her company listed on the U.S. Stock Exchange. The Democratic presidential front-runner was only too happy to oblige and ordered his aides to contact the Securities and Exchange Commission. "The next day," reports Newsweek, "Liu and Chung were ushered into a private briefing with a senior SEC official." Within weeks, Chung returned the favor, staging a Kerry fund raiser at a Beverly Hills hotel that raked in $10,000 for the senator's re-election campaign. Bank records would later show that Kerry's Chinese campaign cash came from $300,000 in overseas wire transfers sent to Chung on orders from the chief of Chinese military intelligence, Newsweek reports. The money was routed through a Hong Kong bank account controlled by Liu, whose company later benefited from waivers granted by the Clinton administration to the U.S. aerospace giant Loral Corp. As Liu and Chung were lining the pockets of the Democratic Party's political elite, Loral handed over top-secret missile guidance technology to Liu's firm. Liu's China Aerospace used the information to perfect Beijing's fleet of intercontinental ballistic missiles, which before the 1990s could not strike the U.S. By the end of the decade, however, China's ICBMs could reach the entire continental United States with pinpoint accuracy, thanks in part to the senator who says now he can be trusted with America's national security.
Chung later testified that before Liu wired him the cash to contribute to prominent Democrats, the chief of Chinese intelligence personally told him: "We like your president. We want to see him re-elected." Apparently, Beijing felt the same way about Sen. John Kerry.- "Kerry Took Cash From Chinese Military Intelligence," by Carl Limbacher, NewsMax, Monday, Feb. 2, 2004 20 posted on 02/08/2004 1:19:33 PM PST by piasa

A subsidiary of China Aerospace company, by the way, is:

China Precision Machinery Import-Export Corporation {CPMIEC)

(snip)
The China Precision Machinery Import-Export Corporation {CPMIEC), a member of the New Era (Xinshidai), was established in 1980 to market the M-family of export missiles. It is also responsible for exports of liquid and solid rocket motors, precision machinery, optical equipment, radars and varietious surface-to-surface, shipborne, anti-ship, and tactical missiles. The company was sanctioned by the United States in August 1993 for missile proliferation, following its shipment of M-11 missiles to Pakistan in 1992- fas Source for above is : fas.org

22 posted on 02/08/2004 1:25:03 PM PST by piasa

And speaking of Kerry's little Chinese donation mentioned above, here's a snippet from a NY times article:

(snips)
The fund-raiser, Johnny Chung, told investigators that a large part of the nearly $100,000 he gave to Democratic causes in the summer of 1996 -- including $80,000 to the Democratic National Committee -- came from China's People's Liberation Army through a Chinese lieutenant colonel and aerospace executive whose father was General Liu Huaqing, the officials and lawyers said. General Liu was then not only China's top military commander but also a member of the top leadership of the Communist Party. Chung said the aerospace executive, Liu Chao-ying, told him the source of the money. At one fund-raiser to which Chung gained admission for her, she was photographed with President Clinton.
... While the amount described is a tiny part of the $194 million that Democrats raised in 1996, investigators regard the identification of Liu as a breakthrough in their long search for confirmation of a "China Plan." The hunt was prompted by secret telephone intercepts suggesting that Beijing considered covertly influencing the American elections.
... Chung met Liu in June 1996 in Hong Kong. She was not only a lieutenant colonel in the military, but a senior manager and vice president in charge of international trading for China Aerospace International Holdings Ltd., according to the company's 1996 annual report. The company is the Hong Kong arm of China Aerospace Corporation, a state-owned jewel in China's military industrial complex with interests in satellite technology, missile sales and rocket launches. Liu's father, General Liu, was China's senior military officer, and as vice chairman of the powerful Central Military Commission was in charge of China's drive to modernize the People's Liberation Army by selling weapons to other countries and using the hard currency to acquire Western technology. In that role, he oversaw his country's missile deals. In addition to his military role, General Liu was a member of the Standing Committee of the Politburo of the Communist Party, the very top circle of political leadership in China. He retired from his official positions last fall at the time of the Party's 15th Congress.
... In 1991 and 1993 the United States barred all American companies from doing business with two China Aerospace units who had made illegal missile sales to Pakistan. In each instance, Liu was assistant to the president of the sanctioned company.
...Those concerns were front and center in 1996, when General Liu was still in charge of the P.L.A. They included China's sale of missiles to Iran and of nuclear equipment to Pakistan, as well as its own bellicose military maneuvers near Taiwan. - New York Times, May 15, 1998 27 posted on 02/08/2004 1:36:18 PM PST by piasa

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