Israeli Rabbis Hope to Search Vatican

Associated Press ^ | Jan. 15, 2004 | Gavin Rabinowitz

[Alouette]

JERUSALEM - Israel's chief rabbis, who will meet the pope Friday, said they hope to get permission to search Vatican storerooms for artifacts such as the huge golden menorah that stood in the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago.

Vatican officials confirmed the meeting would take place but declined comment on the rabbis' request.

Yehuda Metzger and Shlomo Amar are to have an audience with Pope John Paul II, the first by Israel's chief rabbis in the Vatican. The pope met Israel's previous chief rabbis in the Holy Land during his visit in 2000.

Amar, spiritual leader of Israel's Jews of North African origin, told Army Radio that when he received the invitation, "the truth is I asked them, I could not resist ... I asked them about the Temple vessels and the menorah."

When the Romans sacked Jerusalem in 70 A.D., they took huge amounts of booty home. Legend has it that religious articles from the Temple, including the menorah, were among them.

The Arch of Titus in Rome depicts victorious Roman legions marching off with the seven-branch menorah in hand.

Amar said the Vatican official denied the menorah was there.

"My heart tells me this is not the truth, but that it is some kind of camouflage," Amar said. An aide to the rabbi said the Vatican was not likely to permit a search.

The Vatican will allow the rabbis to view rare Jewish manuscripts in its possession, Amar said.

He said if the rabbis were to come across "other objects," they would be happy to bring them home.

The menorah was the most important symbol of the Temple after the Ark of the Covenant. The image of the biblical menorah is the symbol of the modern state of Israel.

Some Orthodox Jews believe the restoration of the menorah and other holy vessels to Jerusalem would be the first step in rebuilding the Temple, whose site is now occupied by the Al Aqsa Mosque, the third holiest shrine of Islam.

[Alouette]

there is no equivalent of baptism in the Jewish Faith.

The Christian rite of baptism was taken directly from the Jewish ritual of mikveh but other than that, there is no Jewish concept of being born in sin.

[missyme]

Very Fair Statement: Thank You..
I ask questions just because I care what everyone has to say when it comes to G-d and his purpose for all of us.

In closing I have to say I also would not be able to study as a theologian in-depth bible reading.

There was a time that I could of cared less about any religion as many friends that I had that were seduced by the temptations in life, for now I think more people are just trying to find there place with G-d. (All faiths)

Hopefully we will always be able to do that with respect kindness and tolerance as you showed me this morning..:)
Susanne

[Campion]

It's conceivable that they have a lot of STUFF jumbled away in vast storage catacombs which hasn't been sorted or catalogued or cleaned out in centuries. Kind of like my basement.

In a country smaller than NYC's Central Park, most of which is covered by churches and gardens? Don't bet on it!

If the Temple artifacts weren't melted down by the Romans, they were stolen and destroyed/lost when the barbarians sacked Rome in the early 5th Century.

OTOH, if they still existed, they would be some of the most important archaelogical artifacts in the world, something the Vatican would hardly keep secret.

Y'all would have better luck looking for the Ark of the Covenant in Ethiopia.

[Romulus]

From Gibbon's Decline and Fall, chapter 36 (dealing with the Vandals' sack of Rome):

"The holy instruments of the Jewish worship,(8) the gold table, and the gold candlestick with seven branches, originally framed according to the particular instructions of God himself, and which were placed in the sanctuary of his temple, had been ostentatiously displayed to the Roman people in the triumph of Titus. They were afterwards deposited in the temple of Peace; and at the end of four hundred years, the spoils of Jerusalem were transferred from Rome to Carthage, by a barbarian who derived his origin from the shores of the Baltic."

Note 008 The curious reader may consult the learned and accurate treatise of Hadrian Reland, de Spoliis Templi Hierosolymitani in Arcu Titiano Romae conspicuis, in 12mo. Trajecti ad Rhenum, 1716.

[Ancesthntr]

If everyone is wrong about "Jesus" than Billions of people have been "tricked" both dead and alive.

A loving G-d would allow something as this massive as the worshipping of Jesus Christ to happen to people he created and love? Does that makes sense to you?

Sorry, I know that I said that we should agree to disagree and leave it at that, but I have to answer this. Jewish Law allows for non-Jews to have a share in The World To Come (what you would call Heaven), provided that they obey the 7 Noahide Laws. Since non-believers in Judaism can "go to Heaven," then it doesn't much matter to Jews (or, apparently, G-d, since this is where Jews get the idea from) that they don't believe. Without meaning any disrespect to you or other sincere believers in faiths other than Judaism, some Jewish scholars have speculated that it is possible that other religions came into being in order to bring some understanding of the Oneness of G-d (i.e. Monotheism) and the resulting morality of a belief in the One True G-d, to an otherwise pagan world. The fact that the two largest faiths, Christianity and Islam, have many elements of Judaism at their core implies that the Jews have had some success in being "a light unto the Nations," even if Jews are only about 1/4 of 1% of the world's population.

Again, no disrespect of any kind is intended by what is in this post. If nothing else, I think that it will further buttress the rather obvious fact that Judaism and Christianity are theologically incompatible.

[Ancesthntr]

...there is no Jewish concept of being born in sin

That's what I meant - thanks for clarifying it.

[Ancesthntr]

Hopefully we will always be able to do that with respect kindness and tolerance as you showed me this morning..:)

Susanne

Thank you for your kind words - I couldn't agree more, and I only wish that everyone else would share this view (particularly certain VERY distant cousins of mine in Gaza, etc.).

[Cicero]

Very interesting, and new to me. You are well named.

[missyme]

Amen to that...I will always pray for Israel and there right to exsist without the tragedy of terror that we all seem to be living with now-a days...

[Romulus]

As thanks for that generous compliment, here's some lagniappe from Gibbon's chapter of Rome's sack by the Goths. It seems as fresh and pertinent as ever:

"THE incapacity of a weak and distracted government may often assume the appearance and produce the effects of a treasonable correspondence with the public enemy."

[Cicero]

Yes. Of course spoils of war are spoils of war, and the Vatican would have a perfect right to keep the Turkish banner in memory of a crucial victory for the Church and the West. But they also value good relations.

Similarly, if the Temple relics were in the Vatican, after 2,000 years, the Vatican would have as good a legal claim to them as anyone. But obviously they would mean more to the Jews than to Catholics and therefore should be returned.

There's some reason to believe that the Ark of the Covenant, a much more precious object than the Menorah, may now be in a church in Ethiopia, but the Ethiopian Christians have their own Church going back to the earliest days, and the Ark is an important part of their rituals, however literally one takes it.

[Cicero]

I reread Livy's histories last year, and I take comfort from the fact that Rome managed to fight successfully against her various enemies for hundreds of years while undergoing recurrent feuds, riots, and civil wars between the Optimates and the Populares. Rome emerged from a century of civil war stronger than ever. So it IS possible to beat our enemies even with the Democrats doing their best to undermine the war effort.

[tracer]

Word has it that they also are looking for "Mormon" baptism lists hidden within the Vatican....... 8~)

[Alouette]

There's some reason to believe that the Ark of the Covenant, a much more precious object than the Menorah, may now be in a church in Ethiopia

How do we know it is the original Ark and not a replica? Do its keepers suffer from hemmerhoids? (I Samuel 5:9)

[rmlew]

What do you think is next on the list?

[Romulus]

STUFF jumbled away in vast storage catacombs

Protected by sacred guard monkeys.

[Antoninus]

From Gibbon's Decline and Fall, chapter 36 (dealing with the Vandals' sack of Rome):

Note 008 The curious reader may consult the learned and accurate treatise of Hadrian Reland, de Spoliis Templi Hierosolymitani in Arcu Titiano Romae conspicuis, in 12mo. Trajecti ad Rhenum, 1716.

I stumbled upon this passage from Gibbon last night when researching this, but didn't see the note. Thanks! I wonder if Hadrian Reland had a contemporary ancient source for this or if it's just speculation on his part?

[Romulus]

It's a good question. Perhaps the Library of Congress or Harvard University has a copy of the Reland book.

I may poke through my own (somewhat more modest) library tonight.

[NYer]

Ping!

[Erasmus]

[...] that nasty little voice inside each and every one of us that tries to tempt you into doing the wrong thing, whether it's commit murder, vote Democrat or eat that jelly doughnut.

In approximate order of importance.

+<)B^)