WEAPONS OF THE WORLD: Folding Knives Replace Bayonets

StrategyPage.com ^ | January 10, 2004 | Mike Perry

[John Jorsett]

Folding combat knives are replacing bayonets for many American combat troops. U.S soldiers carried a multitude of civilian manufactured folding knives into combat during the war in Iraq. Among the favorites were the Karambit, a hook shaped folding blade with lengths varying between two to four inches, weighing 3.5 to 3.8 oz.. and with an outside edge and tapered inside edge. attached to an alloy or polymer injection molded handle with an index finger ring. Developed in Indonesia during the 12th Century as a utility knife, it is known to have killed at least one an Iraqi who seized an American soldier's weapon. The soldier's unit received training on the use of the Karambit as a personal defense tool, and it paid off as the peculiar shaped knife can easily inflict a lethal wound. These knives are fairly expensive, costing $240 and up.

Other folding knives are more conventional in shape. Many Marines favored Strider knives, designed and manufactured by retired combat veterans. The Strider knives were noted for their durability and every member of the new Marine commando unit (Special Operations unit Detachment One) received a specially designed Strider knife called the SMF.

Troops are buying the folding knives to replace the M9 bayonet, which is also being replaced by multi-purpose tools for many everyday tasks. Companies like Leatherman Tool Group offer the knife-sized metal implements in a variety of models. These combat "Swiss Army Knife" items are only four inches long when closed and 6.25 inches long when opened. They are a lot cheaper than the folding knives ($50-60), but won't help you much in a fight.

[Travis McGee]

Buck knives is still located a few miles east of me in El Cajon Cali. I a very partial to their Nighthawk, below. (Mine is all black.)

There is a "thumb rest" top forward, it sounds goofy, but you cannot believe how much more force is put on the blade both stabbing and cutting when your thumb is on top, instead of wrapped around. Of course, you can still wrap your thumb around, but the rest gives you an option not available with other designs.

Another small change I made is the addition of a green paracord wrist lanyard. This goes through the butt, and has a loop a few inches back, made from a bowline knot, just large enough to fit over my wrist. If I anticipated a real to-the-death knife fight, I'd slip that over my wrist. Then no matter what kind of a knockdowndragout I got into, I'd keep the knife. It couldn't be dropped or kicked away. No matter what, I'd keep the knife, until somebody stopped breathing.

I think it's a very hard knife to beat for the money. I can't see spending pistol money on a knife...any knife.

[dennisw]

Nasty and lethal looking!

[Travis McGee]

Pardon a war story, second hand. I went through frog school in 79, so all the instructors were VN vets. Lots of what I learned was from their stories. Here's one. A squad of seals (7 men) approached a lonely enemy hooch at oh dark 30, looking to make a snatch. But as they crept close, out comes papa san to take a leak in the gardet. The squad had a new guy, first tour, no blood, so the squad leader hand signaled him to go "take out" this guy with his knife. His knife was a standard issue USN K-Bar. Very big, very sharp. The said seal stalked up to kill him. It didn't go according to plan, the man turned, and took it in the chest, in a not immediately fatal spot. The strike was not well delivered, they both went down. The man with the knife a few inches in him did not cry out, but battled for his life. The rest of the seals thought this was hilarious, and just watched it play out on the ground. (Their many AWs were trained on the hooch, justin case they woke up.)

Anyway, you have this big strapping seal on top of papa san, trying to drive that big K-bar through that skinny but tough VNs chest. It took a LOT of doing, because apparantly a chest will "grip" a blade like crazy, when the victim is struggling for his life! Plus his hands are on it and your arms too, pushing it away.

It was a long struggle, and eventually it went in and the old guy expired. (RIP, no hard feelings.)

The moral of the story was that a K-bar is a great knife for many things, but it's too damn wide to be shoving through anybody's chest if you're in a hurry. The seal telling this story was of hte opinion that a narrower "dirk" like knife (Sykes Fairbairn or other) is better for sentry stalking. You may intend to go for the throat, but you may end up having to drive it in, and wide knives aren't so good for this purpose.

What made me think of this is that fat tipped spear point knife XSRDX posted a few up from here.

[RandallFlagg]

Those Gators were great when I was on my ship.

But, I preferred my trusty Myerchin. These bad boys can hold an edge. WEEKS of nice, close shaving!

[PoorMuttly]

Funny how this page started with a challenge to the depth of experience of our regular posters.

Funny.

Muttly dislikes hollow-ground blades (they chip), stainless for other than salt-water use (doesn't hold an edge, which M. finds slightly important), and although fat Bowies are THE most useful field blades...must concur with dagger and especially coffin Bowie utility...but my question is...how do PLUM-blades work? I never used one "surgically," but carried one...always worried that even though it increased cutting surface...would also torque it in half..even worse than Sykes/Fairbairn...rather horrifying occurance...so Bowie, like that Buck (stainless...rrrrr), rules....perhaps.

Note to new practitioners: take heed of afore-mentioned scenario...stopping someone with a knife/sword requires "doing as much surgery without anesthetic as you are able, and as fast as possible."

Remember the "Spirit of the Bayonet." If you don't have it in mind...do something else...like run.

The thumb on top is the formal Sabre grip, as in fencing. It is the way to control the right blade into the right place...if the blade is long and sharp enough.

An interesting site :

http://members.aol.com/redfeather88/apacheknife/

...and not desiring to get too deep into this...FR being a civilized and polite forum...once the mouth is "controlled" or even not, if extra force and determination is used first...the throat (see "O.J.") is compromised ENOUGH...then one can move on to the rest of the dismantling proceedure...and the mission proceeds...

[Ronaldus Magnus]

Another small change I made is the addition of a green paracord wrist lanyard. This goes through the butt, and has a loop a few inches back, made from a bowline knot, just large enough to fit over my wrist. If I anticipated a real to-the-death knife fight, I'd slip that over my wrist.

Noooo! Unless you are securing a cavalry revolver, use a billy club lanyard arrangement. Put the lanyard around your thumb, palm up, and let it hang down. Slowly flip your hand over and the lanyard should wrap around the back of your hand and orient the knife in your palm. You may have to adjust your bowline to get the length right, but this approach quickly puts the knife (or club or machete) right where you need it in a way that can't be used against you if it's knocked loose and grabbed.

I agree with everything you said about the Buck Nighthawk. Got mine at Chi-MART for $30 and the thing could split wood.

[Monty22]

Sorry for the delay. It's a CAR-15. Olympic Arms

[AAABEST]

LOL! You must be a busy guy. I was asking about the bayonette, but thank you for remembering me!

Hey Joe, don't you have an Olympic? What's the deal with those again.

From what I remember, don't you have to watch it with the later pre-bans?

[Monty22]

Well.. The bayonet is a Colt M16 military model.
This is a good pic of one, not mine though:

[AAABEST]

I was just thinking, it's odd that you decided to re-ping me on this.

After your post the other night, I remembered an old bayonet that has been in my family for years. I knew just by looking at it it wasn't anything modern because it wouldn't fit on any version of an Armalite.

I found out it was an M-4 made in Japan designed for the M-1 carbine, about 50 + years old. Interestingly, it was never military issue, so I'm going to try and find out where the heck we got this thing.

Strange huh?

[Monty22]

One entry found for synchronicity.


Main Entry: syn·chro·nic·i·ty
Pronunciation: "si[ng]-kr&-'ni-s&-tE, sin-
Function: noun
Date: circa 1889
1 : the quality or fact of being synchronous
2 : the coincidental occurrence of events and especially psychic events (as similar thoughts in widely separated persons or a mental image of an unexpected event before it happens) that seem related but are not explained by conventional mechanisms of causality -- used especially in the psychology of C. G. Jung


---

I personally believe that stuff happens sometimes.

At least, the appearence that it happens occurs a lot. I notice that I won't call someone for 6 months, then try to call them and they're already on the phone trying to call me.

Maybe just coincidence though :)

[AAABEST]

Here's a pic of a new version:

I'm glad I found out the handle is leather, I was just about to break out a sanding wheel to clean it up! LOL.

[wardaddy]

I think it's a very hard knife to beat for the money. I can't see spending pistol money on a knife...any knife.

Amen...my brother bought the Stryder for me when he was at GIA in Carlsbad. My first knife was your standard black and red trimmed Buck deerhunter fixed blade.....this was back when Gerber was a high cotton knife. For hunting I have a Gerber Gator and an Old Timer skinner...both great and both about 30 bucks each.

[Travis McGee]

Maybe I didn't explain my lanyard setup well, but no matter.

I'd put my Buck Nighthawk against any of those $500 dollar knives. And have enough left over to buy a gun. I think Bowie got it right in all the proportions and dimensions for the best all around fighting and all around blade. Smart ones just copy them.

[river rat]

Lucky sons!

What was your "wait" time for those two knives from Nordic?

Nordic must have hundreds on order, at any time - to be able to deliver in the leadtime they quoted me in 2002.
Families with sons in the service - are putting a big dent in the available supply...
Randall allocation has always been biased toward the military in the past - and I suspect that is why the "civilian" que time is so damned long.

If it's not too long - I should try to get another for the youngest grandson, before the que time gets more ridiculas.

Semper Fi

[Travis McGee]

Yep, I remember when Gerber was a big deal name brand. Still good for the money too! Nice folders, and if you lose one, you don't cry over it. I had a couple of their double edge daggers over the years too.

[Mulder]

I don't leave home without my Benchmade AFCK folder.

It's invaluable when it comes to yardwork, cutting boxes, and a million other things.

But if I ever have to use it in a self-defense situation, I figure I must have really screwed up to let someone get that close, and for not having a firearm on me to deal with the threat before they got within contact range.

But it's still better to have it and not need it, than vice versa.

[razorback-bert]

My pocket knife of choice now is a Kershaw assisted opening.

Winchester makes a nice short sheath knife, only $10 at Wally World, it is my carry along steak knife.


K-bar and four pound hammer for bigger jobs.

Swiss Army penknife for nasty letters.

[PoorMuttly]

..did I mention the advisability of carrying TWO knives...whatever they are...?...

[about the "billyclub" grip....Muttly does that...well..he does both...around the wrist for retention, then twists it, and does the thumb thing, then a Saber grip, or whatever the tool requires for the job. This way....it can get out of hand, but not drop too far]

...thanks for mentioning it though...since it has worked so far....but always room for perfection !!!

A handy hobby...and quite sobering, and useful in "the lifelong fight for righteousness." (T.R.)

[Squantos]

I carried one almost my entire career........some of my old posts to you .....I believe we have spoke of it before. It hides in the gun safe a lot these days but every once in a while I'll be showing someone some pics and they see the Randall and they want to see it..... so other than that, it get's into my ruck for hunting and 4 wheeling.......but doesn't see the work it did for me when I was active duty.

That , my M1A and the 1911A1 have never failed me.

Stay Safe !