WEAPONS OF THE WORLD: Folding Knives Replace Bayonets

StrategyPage.com ^ | January 10, 2004 | Mike Perry

[John Jorsett]

Folding combat knives are replacing bayonets for many American combat troops. U.S soldiers carried a multitude of civilian manufactured folding knives into combat during the war in Iraq. Among the favorites were the Karambit, a hook shaped folding blade with lengths varying between two to four inches, weighing 3.5 to 3.8 oz.. and with an outside edge and tapered inside edge. attached to an alloy or polymer injection molded handle with an index finger ring. Developed in Indonesia during the 12th Century as a utility knife, it is known to have killed at least one an Iraqi who seized an American soldier's weapon. The soldier's unit received training on the use of the Karambit as a personal defense tool, and it paid off as the peculiar shaped knife can easily inflict a lethal wound. These knives are fairly expensive, costing $240 and up.

Other folding knives are more conventional in shape. Many Marines favored Strider knives, designed and manufactured by retired combat veterans. The Strider knives were noted for their durability and every member of the new Marine commando unit (Special Operations unit Detachment One) received a specially designed Strider knife called the SMF.

Troops are buying the folding knives to replace the M9 bayonet, which is also being replaced by multi-purpose tools for many everyday tasks. Companies like Leatherman Tool Group offer the knife-sized metal implements in a variety of models. These combat "Swiss Army Knife" items are only four inches long when closed and 6.25 inches long when opened. They are a lot cheaper than the folding knives ($50-60), but won't help you much in a fight.

[jalisco555]

Bump for future reference.

[xsrdx]

It's all theory to me....

BLADE FORUMS

This forum has quite a few threads on the knife/sword martial arts.

So far, I don't think anybody has owned up to actually using a knife in anger, but there is plenty of historical/theoretical/speculative info to keep you entertained awhile.

A great forum for knife knuts.

[xsrdx]

More to the "point"

Tactics & Training

[harpseal]

When I was doing my nature walks in the jungle I carried an aircrew survival knife a little smaller than the K-Bar but very useful for sentries when one needed quiet. Yes the K-Bar was good but there are stories of it going all the way through and out the other side injuring the person weilding it. Now I have not used one of the folders for such a task but I presume many of the better ones would be up to the job.

[xsrdx]

stories of it going all the way through and out the other side injuring the person weilding it.

From what I understand, at least based on what I've read, it's not uncommon for the "operator" to cut themselves, given the unpredictability of the situation, the force involved, and the proximity required.

The first rule of knife fighting: "Expect to get cut."

Not my idea of a pleasant night out.

doing my nature walks

LOL!

[Travis McGee]

Not my idea of a pleasant way to spend time, but a lot better than bare knuckles!

[yarddog]

I am not certain if this qualifies as "using" a knife but I will mention it anyway. I am pretty sure it did save me from an attack.

When I was in high school I worked part time at a local service station. When I worked late nights I would be alone. I would keep a 1903a3 springfield in a room which held the air compressor right behind the main room.

I was in Pensacola one day and noticed the Army Navy Store on Navy blvd., had a barrel full of bayonettes for only $5 each. I picked a nice one and noticed it was stamped 1919 and figured it would fit the springfield. It was very long, maybe 18" and indeed did fit the springfield. I kept it on the rifle when I had it at the station.

One night two guys came by and bought a pack of cigarettes and paid for it with a $20 bill. They then proceeded to try and pull a short change con on me. The fair was in town and I figured they were carnies.

I told them that I knew the scam and was going to phone the police. They tried to convince me that they had simply made a mistake. One of them then pulled out a large pocketknife and began to clean his fingernails with it. I was very sure he did not pull it to just clean his nails.

I walked into the little room and grabbed the springfield and held the loaded rifle nearly, but not quite pointed at them and told them to leave. They got into their car and backed all the way to the highway then turned and left.

[xsrdx]

Minimal Gun Content but interesting anyway BANG!

[spunkets]

Does it matter if only the assailent(s) was armed?

[wardaddy]

Blades are not for brandishing...even more so than firearms which can on occasion be used as a deterrent by a sound minded individual.

My own experience with blades has been to run from them if at all possible....much the same as from baseball bats or extremely large John Matuzak looking knuckledraggers.

I have witnessed blades both large and small used to horrific effect. Folks bleed quite a bit from broad blades and stabs....less so from razor blades.

Effective knife fighting is an art that comes from training. Other than that, it's simply a hail mary much like trying to subdue a Rottweiler with the least damage one can endure.

Sadly, for the recepient, a stab wound from a hunting size knife to the hilt in the torso is not infrequently mortal unless one recieves prompt attention. A 2" wide blade stuck in to the hilt stands a good chance of an aortic nick or puncturing a vital organ. I would rather be shot perhaps...hard to say.

Folks I have known who really lived this bonecrusher thing preferred to get their blade into the neck area on either side of the voice box and jug it around....big blood time....I have completely severed my own subclavian artery (further down the arm) and blood will indeed spurt to the ceiling. Anyone uses a knife to kill someone and they will be very lucky if they do not leave evidence of that victim's blood somewhere on themselves.

I would only opt blade if last choice or for stealth(were I trained) or if I was hellbent for personal up close revenge for something heinous...otherwise just shoot em.

Didn't OJ do all his damage with a folder?

I have a nice bar knife made near you in Oceanside....Magna or something like that with a ripcord threaded lanyard handle....very good steel....pricey.

[river rat]

Would I be dating myself, or behaving like a snob - to declare there is NOTHING as reassuring as a Randall Made - Model 14....

They can still be ordered - from the factory there is more than a 3 year backlog..
To get one sooner, you have to find a dealer that has pre-ordered on speculative basis, and pay an uplift to get in the que to buy the one he has coming in!

The one I purchased for my grandson, required a 14 month wait - from a dealer that had in on order for 2 years before I called!

Semper Fi

[Travis McGee]

With an 18" long bayonet on the end of a Springfield, you can "reach out and touch someone" without pulling the trigger!

[Travis McGee]

Good BTDT insights. I think actually that OJ was using a huge "commando knife" taken from the filming of a movie about Navy SEALs that he was then involved in. The blade was never found, so that rumor has not been confirmed. If it had been found, the media would have made a lot of OJ's "SEAL knife." (I don't think it was a SEAL issue SOG blade, just that it was the bad-ass "commando knife" prop someone was using in a SEAL movie.)

[Travis McGee]

What is it about Randall that makes them worth a 2 year waiting list, when companies such as SOG make such fine blades with modern methods?

[river rat]

Tradition? Memories? Faith in the reliability?
Remembering them as unaffordable when I really needed one?
The heft?

Oh, and the wait from the factory, when I called in late 2002, was 3.5 years. I only got mine in just over a year - by finding a knife dealer in Solvang that had exactly what I wanted on order.

The 14 is a rather large knife - with the first few inches of the blade shaving sharp on both edges.

I watched a two captured officers stripped naked by the body searcher -- using only his 14 to cut away everything the poor bastards had on their body..... The freaking knife went through everything..

The poor bastards were so afraid of that crazy little Irishman, and so terrified of that big flashing blade - they stood there dumbfounded, speechless and very obedient....

To see that big bright bastard flashing about your "essentials"....demands respect...

I'll not bad mouth any of the new and excellent blades being mass produced at reasonable prices-- I own a lot more than I need or can justify!

It's kind of like when you can afford what you REALLY want to pass on the the kids or grandkids - you might want something with a history and charm from a famous knife making family..


Semper Fi

[wardaddy]

Here's my Strider Knife made in San Marcos near you Travis: I also have a Gerber Bowie knife. I keep one in each vehicle. The Gerb is almost a cutlass actually and she has been christened already...albeit against an animal. If in serious trouble, I will use them. They are both very deadly even in an amateur's hands. I think it's advantagous for a full grown man to have a knife that will both stab and cleave (not just cut) effectively. Never let anyone get your knife away from you....like a gun. I cannot imagine using my knives on a human unless I am in deep doo-doo and then if pulled, it is going promptly to work or as I said before, someone deserves to be dispatched that personally....something I sure hope doesn't happen because it will de facto infer that I have suffered an unbearable loss already. This all reminds me of the Long Riders blade fight scene. That recent TL Jones/Bernicio del Toro rather unbelievable flick had a lot of up front blade use concentrating on cutting. It made for good cinema but my common sense view was that if you are that close and capable, why not just kill your opponent and reduce your own risk exposure instead of all that tendon slicing and whatnot....blame Hollywood or Kurosawa.

[xsrdx]

Randall Model 14A (Standard), courtesy Nordic Knives

[river rat]

That's the knife !!
--- other than I got the black sheath, and stainless steel...

And --- That's the dealer, Nordic Knives in Solvang, CA.
The folks there delivered EXACTLY the right knife at the agreed upon price - on the agreed upon date...

Whatever you're looking for in a blade - I can wholeheartedly recommend the folks there --- a knowledgeable and honest shop..

Semper Fi

[xsrdx]

And with all the Strider pics on this thread, it wouldn't be right not to post a pic of Busse...

Busse Steel Heart IIE

[xsrdx]

The folks there delivered EXACTLY the right knife at the agreed upon price - on the agreed upon date...

My experience also, with a Model 14 and a semi-custom Model 1.

I have two 14's due in from them in April for my sons.