Posted on 12/25/2003 10:19:48 AM PST by 4.1O dana super trac pak
Edited on 04/29/2004 2:03:37 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
Would you support a temporary work visa for illegal aliens?
(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...
Heck, I read that the money the illegals are sending back to mexico is more than the "Foreign Aid" we send to the Mexican government. Well, let's stop the Foreign Aid to Fox till he stops the "migration" from his country.
Betcha that might change his mind as he then becomes one of the poor....heheheh
Must have legal status (green card) to serve in the military. According to the WSJ, there are currently over 31,000 non-citizen foreign nationals serving in the US militay. Hispanics are the largest group. Here's a clip from April 4, 2003 WSJ:
You have managed to completely avoid the question. I am talking about the illegals working in restaurants, for gardeners and such. Not those in the military. You don't even want to answer the questions posed just attempt to bolster your arguement for rewarding illegals.
Keeping in mind that these soldiers are fighting for the United States in Iraq, I would imagine that the support would be even greater if the US/the North American continent were invaded. Thousands of Mexicans crossed the border & joined the US military after Pearl Harbor. I would think that if the US was invaded, then Mexico & Canada would certainly join the US to expel the invaders from the North American continent.
To answer your question--YES, absolutely YES.
I have highlighted the key point to your position. Times are different today. I don't see any evidence that these beloved illegals of yours would lift a finger to help defend America.
A large community of American & Canadian expatriates are currently living in Mexico, mostly retirees. I would fully expect that when those expatriates talk about my country, they are referring to their country of origin.
These retirees are not leaching off of Mexicans. They are living a life as a retired person not one of an illegal invader.
I lived most of my life in Oklahoma; that's where my cultural identity was formed. I've lived in Wisconsin for nearly 7 years, but I still think of myself as a southwesterner; I do not identify myself to me as a Wisconsinite.
That is not even part of the arguement. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand which is loyalty to a country that provides the freedom they are living under.
No one values living in America the same way you do. It's an individual thing. Example: Who has ever gone through school in the US w/o having written at least one essay about What America Means to Me? Read 20 of those essays, read 100 of those essays--they will all be different because we are individuals and we have individual beliefs & values.
What an inane response. You know perfectly well what I meant. If they are willing to break the law to get here and nothing is done to punish them then they begin to believe that breaking the law is the norm. These illegals have very little respect for the laws and they, by the fact that they are willing to break the law from day one, show me that they do not value the freedoms we have and thereby denegrate our society.
Do you still think that? After learning that thousands & thousands of Hispanics have served in the United States military? When Mexico has found many battles for their own independence? When untold numbers of Hispanics have died fighting for the United States/ fighting for Mexican independence? And, is not learning the significance of American holidays a very significant part of the studies to become a citizen?
Yes I do. Here, you reveal yourself for what you are. You are pro hispanic. Plain and simple. You never once talk about the Europeans, Asians, or Africans that come here illegaly. It is painfully obvious to me you are motivated by a misguided respect for criminals who are willing to subvert the very laws that grant you the freedom to live here. If you are so enamored of these hispanics then go live in Mexico where you can be surrounded by these wonderful people. As you advocate the destruction of our country I think you should leave.
We have to win this war.
In ten years, from '89 to 97, the United States has paid out $156.7 for the direct and indirect costs of the legalized population, but has received a little more than half that back in taxes — $78 billion.
Illegal aliens are gaining a strong foothold in our lifestyle while our President refuses to bring a complete halt to this invasion. He has done a few things I am proud of (Afghanistan & Iraq) but this refusal to halt illegal immigration is without a doubt the most serious infraction to the continuance of our American way of life ever I have ever witnessed. This is first and foremost, a serious national disaster.
Well, excuse me for not understanding your poorly worded & confusing question. First you said to disregard illegals & then you framed the question about illegals. So, are you asking if illegals would engage in hand to hand combat in the parking lot of Pizza Hut in order to repel the enemy force? Are you asking if a 67 year old grandfather gardener will chase after the bad guys w/ his pitchfork? Most assuredly you aren't talking about the many Hispanics who are in the military, many of whom are not citizens but who have demonstrated that they will indeed fight for this country.
I have highlighted the key point to your position. Times are different today. I don't see any evidence that these beloved illegals of yours would lift a finger to help defend America.
From the April 2003 WSJ, since you apparently didn't read it the first time I posted it: ...And while polls say 80% of Mexicans do not support this war, the U.S. Embassy in Mexico City has been swamped with hundreds of requests to enlist in the U.S. military... You refuse to see the evidence when it's put under your nose. And what a discount you ascribe to the men who crossed the border & joined the US military after Pearl Harbor was bombed. What a discount to their character. And an attitude that character is a one shot deal and not something a person strives to instill in their children and their children into their sons & daughters. To not suppose that these men were proud of their service & that their children & grand children are not proud of that service.
These retirees are not leaching off of Mexicans. They are living a life as a retired person not one of an illegal invader.
Off topic. Another version of ad hominem attack. You're angry that Mexicans send money they earn in this country to Mexico. Why aren't you angry that Americans are spending money they earned in this country in Mexico. You, sir, are inconsistent.
That is not even part of the arguement. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand which is loyalty to a country that provides the freedom they are living under.
You don't want illegals here & then you're angry because they don't identify themselves as Americans? You should be happy. If they don't feel American, that should be an indication that they want to return to Mexico. Again, you are being inconsistent.
These illegals have very little respect for the laws and they, by the fact that they are willing to break the law from day one, show me that they do not value the freedoms we have and thereby denegrate our society.
Back to the same old thing about us disagreeing on the degree of criminality. If a guy jumps a fence & steals a chicken to feed his starving children, he's guilty of breaking at least two laws. But he's not a criminal. Has not one thing to do with freedom values & is an indictment of society rather than a denigration of it.
You are pro hispanic. Plain and simple. You never once talk about the Europeans, Asians, or Africans that come here illegaly. It is painfully obvious to me you are motivated by a misguided respect for criminals who are willing to subvert the very laws that grant you the freedom to live here. If you are so enamored of these hispanics then go live in Mexico where you can be surrounded by these wonderful people. As you advocate the destruction of our country I think you should leave.
So what? I've presented some dimensions of the situation that appear to make you uncomfortable. Have I been inaccurate? If so, please elucidate. Refute what I have said with some facts. All you've presented are feelings, impressions; make your case on something other than emotions. Quit trying to change the subject by bringing Europeans, Africans & Asians into the discussion when you know darned well that 99% of the discussion has revolved around illegal immigration from Mexico. And, FYI, I don't give a flying fig about where you think I should live. I'm an American & I'll live where I freakin' well want to live. However, since you seem particularly perturbed about where you live, I'd suggest that you would probably be much, much happier living somewhere else.
I'm curious what your relationship is w/ these immigrants? Just a general description like if they are co-workers, etc.
Maybe not him, but how about his sons and grandsons? Apparently you don't think even they should have to defend America, the country they are sponging off.
Most assuredly you aren't talking about the many Hispanics who are in the military, many of whom are not citizens but who have demonstrated that they will indeed fight for this country.
Some 20,000 people compared to the estimated 10 million illegals. I am so unimpressed by these numbers. Besides, they don't do it out of any sense of pride as an America. Just another attempt to become a citizen.
And what a discount you ascribe to the men who crossed the border & joined the US military after Pearl Harbor was bombed. What a discount to their character.
That was sixty years ago. Doesn't count when talking about amnesty today.
Off topic. Another version of ad hominem attack. You're angry that Mexicans send money they earn in this country to Mexico. Why aren't you angry that Americans are spending money they earned in this country in Mexico. You, sir, are inconsistent.
NOt inconsistent at all. I am still talking about illegals. Those people are not in Mexico illegally. (I know that you don't recognize them as illegals. You have your moral blinders on.)
ou don't want illegals here & then you're angry because they don't identify themselves as Americans? You should be happy. If they don't feel American, that should be an indication that they want to return to Mexico. Again, you are being inconsistent.
Your statement is illogical. It is possible to both not want them here and be disgusted by the fact that they show respect for the country that supports them while they are committing their crime of illegal invastio.
So what? I've presented some dimensions of the situation that appear to make you uncomfortable. Have I been inaccurate? If so, please elucidate.
You make me uncomfortable by your blatant disregard for the law and the sovereign right of America to protect its borders. You would have them come here unabated. That makes me uncomfortable. I know you state to the contrary but I no longer believe you.
Quit trying to change the subject by bringing Europeans, Africans & Asians into the discussion when you know darned well that 99% of the discussion has revolved around illegal immigration from Mexico.
Which is exactly my point. No one cares if those others are sent back home. It's only the hispanics that get the attention. Why? Why are we, as a nation, allowing one group of criminals a free pass and not the rest? They add nothing to our society. They are a drain and now they are here with their hands out as if we are supposed to fill it for them. They disgust me.
Just a general description like if they are co-workers, etc.
I guess they are co-workers. I am an industrial electrician. I don't see the noble hispanics that you see. I see, when the press goes down, all the whites working to get it running again while the hisps sit around on their fat butts. When I am called to a machine because they broke it, I hear, "Broke, no work." and I am left to try to figure out what is wrong with it because they can't (or won't) tell me in English what the problem is. Most of them are lazy and would have me fix all the problems with their equipment because they refuse to keep it clean, do any general maintainence or even care what happens to it. I don't have a misguided respect for hispanics. I have not, nor will I fall into the trap of believing that they are all wonderful, hard-working people. I see first hand the scum that they are. I cannot be convinced otherwise.
OK--Here you're changing the question. I thought you wanted to know would they fight to defend America. Now you're asking should they have to to defend America. Give me an example of the sort of defense situation you're thinking and then wait for me to answer the question before coming to conclusions about what I think. OK? Fair?
Some 20,000 people compared to the estimated 10 million illegals. I am so unimpressed by these numbers.
You're trying to compare 20,000 people who have legal immigrant status and are eligible to and are serving in the military with 10 million people who are barred from serving in the military. This is like saying that out of all the people under the age of 19 in this country, you're unimpressed by the number of 13 year olds who are serving in the military. It's neither a fair nor meaningful comparison. You aren't giving consideration to the numbers of people in that 10 million who would serve in the military if given the opportunity, nor consideration to the numbers who would like to but cannot because they don't meet other basic eligibilty requirements such as having a high school diploma (correct me if I'm wrong about this now being a reqirement.)
That was sixty years ago. Doesn't count when talking about amnesty today.
The Pearl Harbor example wasn't given in support of anmesty. It was given as an historical example of Mexicans willing to defend America...or, probably more precisely, willing to defend North America and was quite apropo to your hypotheical scenario of the United States being invaded by some unknown foreign source, presumably from another continent. ;)
NOt inconsistent at all. I am still talking about illegals.
You were talking about illegals sending money back to Mexico (while still residing in the US and spending at least some of the money they earn here in this country). I used the expatriate community who earned their money in the US & Canada as an example of a group of people who earned their money in the US & Canada & who are now making nearly all of their current expenditures in Mexico. WE were talking about MONEY and where it is being spent.
It is possible to both not want them here and be disgusted by the fact that they show respect for the country that supports them while they are committing their crime of illegal invastio.
We mostly agree on this point although I don't consider the mere fact of illegal entry in & of itself to be a manisfestation of disrespect to the degree that you do. (which is the word you I think you meant to type.
You make me uncomfortable by your blatant disregard for the law and the sovereign right of America to protect its borders. You would have them come here unabated. That makes me uncomfortable. I know you state to the contrary but I no longer believe you.
NO, I would not have them come here unabated. America most certainly has the right to protect its borders. Moreover, I think it is the duty of the federal government to protect the borders & I am very angry that such a lousy job is being done. The reality of the situation is that the borders are being flooded w/ people we know nothing about & who we have no means of tracking. I'm arguing for steps to do more about that. I'm arguing for giving some sort of legal status to workers. I'm against automatically confering citizenship status to babies born in this country to illegal parents--it's these new citizen babies/ children who are the recipients of a large share of the welfare largesse going to the illegal community. I believe that it is impossible to absolutely stop the entry of illegal aliens across our southern border, but that it is possible to change some of the policies that entice them across the border.
Which is exactly my point. No one cares if those others are sent back home. It's only the hispanics that get the attention. Why?
Damned good question. For example, most of the illegals who were rounded up who were working for the contractor cleaning Wal-Marts were eastern Europeans. I was flabberghasted at the numbers of people who assumed that the illegals were Hispanics or just launched into diatribes about Mexicans & ignored what should have been a real eye-opener about illegal aliens from waaaaaay across the ocean. I want to know lots more about how they got here, who facilitated it, what countries they passed thru....
Most of them are lazy and would have me fix all the problems with their equipment because they refuse to keep it clean, do any general maintainence or even care what happens to it.
That sounds exactly like the crew at McDonald's where my son worked this past summer & there wasn't a Hispanic (all were Caucasion) amongst them. True, most were teenagers, but their behavior on that job sure as hell isn't a good indication of their future performance. More than that, some of them were actually destructive--slices of cheese into the toaster, using the ketchup gun in a game of paintball on the line. A young (20 or so) assistant manager (Caucasion) who made repeated sexually inappropriate remarks about the mothers of the male teenagers who were working there (and laughed about the ketchup gun incident while it was happening in his presence.)
Obviously, many of those you describe have little or no mechanical sense. But you have to keep in mind that these people come here from a third world country and haven't had nearly the degree of exposure to machinery that many Americans here do. And it's just a fact that no matter how much exposure people have, some of them are total mechanical idiots. My 13 YO son can barely figure out which end of the cord goes into the outlet, but I need to be well rested if I plan to engage him in a game of mental math.
Lazy, incompetent, unwilling to learn lukewarm bodies should be fired and replaced. Here is a situation where the idea of work permits for foreign workers figures into the equation. Work permits should hinge on the ability to perform & hold down a job.
This is really getting tedious. You know perfectly well what I mean.
You aren't giving consideration to the numbers of people in that 10 million who would serve in the military if given the opportunity, nor consideration to the numbers who would like to but cannot because they don't meet other basic eligibilty requirements such as having a high school diploma (correct me if I'm wrong about this now being a reqirement.
Please stop acting as if I am being disingenous. Too bad if they are too stupid to get a high shcool diploma.
...or, probably more precisely, willing to defend North America...
Here, once again, your true loyalty is revealed. You see North America as one nation and would have the borders opened to all these slugs from the south of the our border.
WE were talking about MONEY and where it is being spent.
No, we were not. I was talking about the drain of money going to Mexico and points south while the advocates of illegals, like yourself, are trying to convince us that they contribute to our society. Quite a big difference in reality and what you would like us to see.
For example, most of the illegals who were rounded up who were working for the contractor cleaning Wal-Marts were eastern Europeans.
Shewairy did say the workers came from 18 nations and included 90 people from Mexico, 35 from the Czech Republic, 22 from Mongolia and 20 from Brazil. The government initially said it had arrested about 300 people, but Shewairy said Friday the number turned out to be lower. From here.
You see how you exagerate? The fact is that most of the people arrested were hispanic. You just can't accept the fact that these illegals are thieves and criminals.
Obviously, many of those you describe have little or no mechanical sense. But you have to keep in mind that these people come here from a third world country and haven't had nearly the degree of exposure to machinery that many Americans here do. And it's just a fact that no matter how much exposure people have, some of them are total mechanical idiots. My 13 YO son can barely figure out which end of the cord goes into the outlet, but I need to be well rested if I plan to engage him in a game of mental math.
It has nothing to do with mechanical aptitude. They are stupid and lazy. They break the machine to stop working. They think I can't tell this. I can. I have 25 years of experience figuring out why something doesn't work. It's just too bad they don't have this in their own country. Stop them from coming into ours illegally. Send them all back. They are drain on our society.
I do not. I don't pretend to be clairvoyant.
Too bad if they are too stupid to get a high shcool diploma.
I don't assume that someone is stupid based on their lack of formal education. To make that assumption reeks of intellectual arrogance.
Here, once again, your true loyalty is revealed. You see North America as one nation and would have the borders opened to all these slugs from the south of the our border.
Not a very perceptive remark. Just because Mexicans crossed the border & enlisted in the US military after Pearl Harbor doesn't prove to me that they were motivated to do so out of loyalty to the United States. I considered that they viewed the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor as an attack on North America....that the Japanese might very well decide to bomb the Long Beach naval yard or San Diego, that they envisioned a possible Japanese invasion of California or the Baja peninsula, that there was a sizeable Hispanic community in California, some of whom were probably relatives & that if the Japanese decided to occupy the United States, that the Japanese would likely not stop at the Rio Grande River & would continue to march south and occupy Mexico. The enemy of my neighbor is my enemy. You don't need even a high school diploma to figure that out; all you need is a little common sense & a freaking map.
I was talking about the drain of money going to Mexico and points south...
And so was I. You're angry about it but you're only angry when it's Hispanics sending American dollars back to Mexico. Those dollars that go to Mexico don't hit a brick wall & disintegrate. Mexico is our second largest trading partner and Mexico has approx. 1/3 the population of the US. In 200l Mexico exports to the US totaled $131.43 billion & Mexico imports from the US totaled $113.7 billion. It's pretty obvious that some of those dollars are making a round trip.
Shewairy did say the workers came from 18 nations and included 90 people from Mexico, 35 from the Czech Republic, 22 from Mongolia and 20 from Brazil. The government initially said it had arrested about 300 people, but Shewairy said Friday the number turned out to be lower.
Thank you for the link. I had not read that article & I stand corrected. Several articles, all of the ones that I had read, stated that those rounded up were mainly Eastern Europeans. I was agreeing with you (about other than Hispanic illegal aliens not being the subject of much discussion) & did not make an intentional nor deliberate exaggeration. Here's one article that states (erroneously apparently) that those rounded up were mainly eastern Europeans: http://www.softcom.net/webnews/wed/bp/Qus-walmart-immigrants.RKti_DN4.html WSJ (within the last 3 weeks or so, posted here at Free Republic) also did an indepth piece about the shady contractor situation & discusses the eastern Europeans.
It has nothing to do with mechanical aptitude. They are stupid and lazy. They break the machine to stop working. They think I can't tell this. I can. I have 25 years of experience figuring out why something doesn't work. It's just too bad they don't have this in their own country. Stop them from coming into ours illegally. Send them all back. They are drain on our society.
Doesn't speak well for the employer who hired them & keeps them on the payroll, does it? The employer is stupid and apparently too lazy to find better workers. The American employer is hiring stupid & lazy illegals. Why doesn't the employer at least hire stupid & lazy American employees? Those aren't hard to find either. Why are you so angry w/ illegals working in this country when it's Americans who are hiring them & making it possible for them to work here in the first place? Your anger is misplaced.
Send them all back
How? What's your plan on how to accomplish this? How do you plan to keep others from taking their place? How do you plan to prevent them from returning? For that matter, how the hell do you plan to find all 10 million of them? How many new police & border patrol hires do you estimate we will need? How much do you estimate it will cost to find 10 million people, to deport 10 million people, to refind them, to re-deport them? How do you plan to make the border leak-proof? You don't like my plan. Present your plan and let us examine it.
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