Late Neanderthals 'more like us'

BBC ^ | 12-24-93 | Paul Rincon

[DeepDish]

Neanderthals were shedding their sturdy physique and evolving in the direction of modern humans just before they disappeared from the fossil record. Newly-identified remains from Vindija in Croatia, which date to between 42,000 and 28,000 years ago, are more delicate than "classic" Neanderthals.

One controversial explanation is that these Neanderthals were interbreeding with modern humans in the region.

Details of the research appear in the Journal of Human Evolution.

Excavations also reveal the Vindija Neanderthals were developing advanced ways of making stone tools that mirror innovations elsewhere by modern humans (Homo sapiens).

[bondserv]

Are you familiar where the concept of freedom originated.

Hint: It wasn't the Ancient Greeks, nor the Romans, nor the Colonial English.

Answer: A universally God Fearing group of colonists that chose to try to establish a society ruled by principles laid out in the Christian Holy Bible. Freedom in Christ. A Triune government developed by a Biblically Literate group of men drawing from the Majesty of Judeo-Christian Scriptures.

If you can't acknowledge this, perhaps you should spend a couple months looking into our countries founders. Here.

[Green Knight]

I dunno, but I do know that the Bible does hint that man existed long before Adam and that he and his "civilization" was wiped out completely by the Lord Himself.

Do you have a source? I'd just like to know where to look and verify this for myself.

[Green Knight]

He married one of his sisters/nieces/grand-nieces. Let me lay it out for you.

The Bible says that Adam and Eve had Cain, Abel, Seth, and other sons and daughters. They never list how many children. It also says that Seth was born when Adam was 130. Eve makes a big deal about God appointing Seth in place of Abel. That makes it likely that Cain murdered Abel shortly before the birth of Seth. And lastly, it states that after his banishment, Cain "knew" his wife and had a child. It doesn't say he met her. It says that they had sex and she got pregnant. So it's pretty clear that he was already married before he murdered Abel.

So that gives Cain 130 years to find a wife. So where'd she come from? Again, I point to the "other sons and daughters" line. Jewish tradition holds that Adam and Eve had 33 sons and 23 daughters, total. Now, let's assume a couple things.

1) Eve only had 12 of those daughters, half, before the birth of Seth.
2) She gave birth to her first daughter when she was 18.
3) She had each additional daughter every 10 years.
4) Her daughters followed suit, having their first daughter at the age of 18, and having an additional daughter every 10 years thereafter. Likewise with her graundaughters, etc.

Do those seem like nice conservative numbers? Okay, assuming all that, here's how many female children are born each year for each generation
(Example: Year 29: -/-/3/-/-/4/-/-. That means that in the 29th year of Adam's life, 3 female children were born in the 3rd generation, Eve's grand-daughters, and 4 female children were born in the 6th generation, Eve's Great-Great-Great-Grand-daughters}. Note that Generation 1 consists solely of Eve.

Year 001: 1/-/-/-/-/-/-/-
Year 018: -/1/-/-/-/-/-/-
Year 028: -/1/-/-/-/-/-/-
Year 036: -/-/1/-/-/-/-/-
Year 038: -/1/-/-/-/-/-/-
Year 046: -/-/2/-/-/-/-/-
Year 048: -/1/-/-/-/-/-/-
Year 054: -/-/-/1/-/-/-/-
Year 056: -/-/3/-/-/-/-/-
Year 058: -/1/-/-/-/-/-/-
Year 064: -/-/-/3/-/-/-/-
Year 066: -/-/4/-/-/-/-/-
Year 068: -/1/-/-/-/-/-/-
Year 072: -/-/-/-/1/-/-/-
Year 074: -/-/-/6/-/-/-/-
Year 076: -/-/5/-/-/-/-/-
Year 078: -/1/-/-/-/-/-/-
Year 082: -/-/-/-/4/-/-/-
Year 084: -/-/-/10/-/-/-/-
Year 086: -/-/6/-/-/-/-/-
Year 088: -/1/-/-/-/-/-/-
Year 090: -/-/-/-/-/1/-/-
Year 092: -/-/-/-/10/-/-/-
Year 094: -/-/-/15/-/-/-/-
Year 096: -/-/7/-/-/-/-/-
Year 098: -/1/-/-/-/-/-/-
Year 100: -/-/-/-/-/5/-/-
Year 102: -/-/-/-/20/-/-/-
Year 104: -/-/-/21/-/-/-/-
Year 106: -/-/8/-/-/-/-/-
Year 108: -/1/-/-/-/-/1/-
Year 110: -/-/-/-/-/15/-/-
Year 112: -/-/-/-/35/-/-/-
Year 114: -/-/-/28/-/-/-/-
Year 116: -/-/9/-/-/-/-/-
Year 118: -/1/-/-/-/-/6/-
Year 120: -/1/-/-/-/35/-/-
Year 122: -/-/-/-/56/-/-/-
Year 124: -/-/-/36/-/-/-/-
Year 126: -/-/10/-/-/-/-/1
Year 128: -/1/-/-/-/-/21/-

So by the time of Seth's birth, there're 400 women on Earth. Eve plus 399 women descended from her. 195 of them are old enough to be Cain's wife, if you only count the ones that are 18 and up when Seth is born. So no, Cain's wife didn't spontaneously generate. If you do the math, you'll see that after 130 years, there'd be plenty of women to choose from. And that's after going with a low estimate. There's nothing to say that Eve didn't have daughters sooner and more frequently, which would result in a greater number of generations in that 130 year period, or that her children and grand-children only had as many children as Jewish tradition says Eve did and not more, or that they didn't have them sooner than 18, that the occasional twins weren't born, and so on.

Point is, the whole "Where did Cain's wife come from?" argument doesn't hold water. Taking those other factors outlined in the beginning of this post from Genesis, it makes perfect sense. Now if you discount Genesis entirely, then that's your perogative. But if your argument is based around the Biblical account not making sense with itself, then your argument doesn't hold water.

Sidenote: It's my personal opinion that Cain married late in life, seeing as how he didn't have his first child until after his banishment. But that's just me.

[fso301]

Us meaning liberals.

[Junior]

Not sure what your comment has to do with the physical differences between Homo Sapiens and Homo Neanderthalensis. You know, there is no limit on the length of a post; you could supply as much detail as necessary to make your post more understandable.

[Junior]

Spears are primarily thrusting weapons.

[Junior]

I'm sorry, but nowhere in the Bible is a government structure similar to the one we enjoy presented. Indeed, the most common governments in the Bible are absolute monarchies (wherein the ruler can do just about whatever he likes) and tribal/headman types wherein the patriarch had absolute authority over his people. Our government is consciously patterned on the old Roman Republic model.

[Lazamataz]

Late Neanderthals 'more like us'

Makes sense.

Now, when I am late to an event, I can blame the Neanderthal Within.

[tpaine]

bondserv wrote:
Are you familiar where the concept of freedom originated.

Hint: It wasn't the Ancient Greeks, nor the Romans, nor the Colonial English.

Answer: A universally God Fearing group of colonists that chose to try to establish a society ruled by principles laid out in the Christian Holy Bible. Freedom in Christ. A Triune government developed by a Biblically Literate group of men drawing from the Majesty of Judeo-Christian Scriptures.
If you can't acknowledge this, perhaps you should spend a couple months looking into our countries founders.

---

Basically, I can ackowledge that the Founders designed our system of government in the form of a constitutionally limited republic, with maximum freedom intended for the people and minimum government control or interference into our personal lives and business affairs.
The united states of America was intended to be a federation of sovereign states, each with its own constitution and state government. Governments at all levels -- federal, state and local -- were to be controlled by the people. Our Constitution explicitly restricts the power of our federal government; and our Bill of Rights guarantees that NO government may infringe upon our unalienable rights. This is to ensure that the real power remains close to home, with the states, the local governments and always in the hands of the people. We the People have granted our federal government limited powers to oversee certain things, such as national defense, interstate commerce, the postal service, the coining of money, and the operation of a court system. Most other powers now in the hands of the federal government were illegally usurped from the states and from the people. Somehow, over the years, our guiding principles of law, as set forth in the Constitution, have been eroded to the point that the federal government now has total control -- leaving the states impotent and the people as captive servants to the federal government. This must be reversed if we are to survive as a free Republic and a free people.


Can you?

[VadeRetro]

Spears are primarily thrusting weapons.

Exactly. The thrusting-spear or pike has known many variations. In its steel-tipped form it remained in non-ceremonial use through the Middle Ages and well into the age of gunpowder weapons.

[VadeRetro]

Guess I could have read the article:

The spears were shaped to be thickest toward the front with a long tapering tail, like modern javelins, which suggests they were meant for throwing rather than jabbing.

Could be the oldest throwing-spears known. Still, for some reason, the Neanderthals don't seem to have relied heavily on stand-off methods.

[blam]

Even So....

"Frank Herrold, an anthropologist at the University of Texas at Arlington, said the spears will have to be studied further to establish that they were really meant to be thrown."

[bondserv]

It would seem that roadblocks came about when they did things your way.

Benjamin Franklin Requests Prayer in the Constitutional Convention
June 28, 1787

Mr. President [to George Washington]

The small progress we have made after 4 or five weeks close attendance & continual reasonings with each other-our different sentiments on almost every question, several of the last producing as many noes as ays, is methinks a melancholy proof of the imperfection of the Human Understanding. We indeed seem to feel our own want of political wisdom, since we have been running about in search of it. We have gone back to ancient history for models of Government, and examined the different forms of those Republics which having been formed with the seeds of their own dissolution now no longer exist. And we have viewed Modern States all round Europe, but find none of their Constitutions suitable to our circumstances.

In this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when presented to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings? In the beginning of the Contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the divine protection.- Our prayers, Sir, were heard, & they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need his assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth- that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that "except the Lord build the House they labour in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

Link

[VadeRetro]

It's probably at least as easy to get a tapered pole as it is a cylindrical one from a tree. Most tree limbs, when cleaned of twigs, stems, and leaves, have a natural taper. Nevertheless, for a throwing spear you would take a somewhat smaller one and put the head on the fat end. For a thrusting spear you would use a longer, heavier piece--perhaps the main stem of a sapling--and just as likely put the head on the skinny end. (Of course, you don't want either end to be too skinny. Your nightmare would be slamming it in some big animal and having it break rather than penetrate.)

[Junior]

Okay, so where in the Bible does it describe our form of government, as you claimed?

[bondserv]

Types!

Trinity

Father = Executive (Highest Authority) Commissioned Christ to create!
Son = Legislative (Creator) By him all things were made.
Holy Spirit = Judicial (Action) Carries out the actions originating from Christ.

Body of Christ:
Each member has individual gifts to contribute to the whole and should pursue the Holy Spirit to bring them to fruition.

Private citizen:
Each member has the right to pursue their strengths contributing to the whole. (Capitalistic Freedom to Pursuit of happiness)

Legislative laws were based on Judeo-Christian commands derived from the Christian Bible. (We still retain capital punishment, unlike most westernized nations in the world today)


Hindsight shows us the fruits the Founders wrought by their prayerful consideration of a Supreme Beings desires for our nation. (All of these men were sinners, however the Grace of God Blessed them abundantly).

[ForGod'sSake]

Mot of the pictures I see of the estimated looks of neanderthals convince me that they would be unremarkable in a dim saloon.

Izzatso? They are actually easy to spot when they are out clubbin'.

FGS ;^)

[farmfriend]

HAHAHAHA!

[DeepDish]

Those guys look as if they are heading for the Blue Oyster Bar.

Love that pic.

[ForGod'sSake]

Glad y'all liked it. I started playing around with the Neanderthal theme after the senate lifeguard's unseemly remarks concerning "W's" judicial appointments. Another...

FGS