Report: Submarine damage worse than expected [USS Hartford]

Navy Times ^ | December 23, 2003 | AP Staff

[Excuse_My_Bellicosity]

GROTON, Conn.

[fourdeuce82d]

Why would a man who is a man allow his hard won judgement be dismissed, AND in a life threatening situation no less? Ah, but there, I've answered my own question!

I think I stated the conclusion poorly- from the examples that were shown, the situation was often ambiguous- i.e. the co-pilot didn't look up, see the plane approaching a mountain, mention it to the pilot (reading a magazine at the time) get brushed off... and leave it alone.

From what I saw, it was more a case of conflicting interpretations of information...with the junior officer acceding to a more experienced, and often respected senior officer- the Tenerife disaster in the canary islands was the fault of the guy who ran KLMs safety program, and was a legend w/in his community. His junior officer acceded to his judgement, and he and a bunch (~500) of other people were killed.

I have no idea if this sort of this is inovlved in the sub incidents- it sounds as though multiple people had to have blundered- but I don't know. I'd be interested in BNG or other submariners thoughts/opinions.

[John123]

How much will it cost to replace USS Hartford?

[LasVegasMac]

I believe that in this case the Commodore was actually on board and therefore assumed command burden.

That is a whole different ball game. Did not get that from the article, but if he was on board and "in command" then it makes sense.

Thanks for the reply. Helps us "fleet challenged" types figure out what the hell that port / starboard thingy is.

LVM

[Sub-Driver]

They were short of the turn.......missed by a long shot...

[sawyer]

Sub crews play together as a unit. Everyone knows all jobs to be-able to ride a sub. The things sink to fast if it is not played as one big unit.

[vetvetdoug]

The KLM disaster was horrible for USAF medics. We were shipped on a DC-9 to Dover to prep the 400+ bodies that were from that accident. It was in early 1977.

[sawyer]

Funny as these guys are usually on the fast track for number one.

[mikenola]

I find it a bit surprising this incident is even seeing the light of day. I thought sub accidents were strictly hush-hush stuff? (Except in cases of the Greenville, etc)

Also, is commodore a term still in common use, now that it's not an official rank?

Curious minds...

[sawyer]

I hardly think their was a cowboy on one of these babies. That was for the old fleet boats and their days.

[LasVegasMac]

I think you are mixing apples and oranges.

No one died in this incident. High dollar material loss, probably.

But does not rise to the level of what you suggest.

LVM

[jimfree]

Also, is commodore a term still in common use, now that it's not an official rank?

The "commander" of an air wing or the "commander" of a squadron of surface ships or submarines often is referred to as commodore though the official title is commander.

[TheBattman]

I think a few careers were left on the sandy bottom, too.

As it should be.

[SauronOfMordor]

I understand the Skipper being canned but is it normal for the Commodore to be relieved?

If an officer is deemed sufficiently out-to-lunch, the blame falls on the senior who allowed that officer to hold onto his command. The incident shows extreme failure of cammand competence on the sub, and therefore on the part of the squadron commander.

[vetvetdoug]

Because of the seriousness of the accident and potential ramifications, the Italian PM was notified when this happened. The Navy at first thought this sub could sink. The cat was out of the bag. Many crewmen called home via cell phones to say they were in danger of not coming home. Since this was not combat there was some use of the phones. The submarine was going full speed when it hit the wall....faster than any sub had gone before....note that the Hartford was the fastest submarine in the US fleet. That speed so near the coast has been considered by many submariners (when not in a combat situation) is asking for trouble. Cowboy has been the term used by some that commented about this accident. Commander is the rank, not Commodore. The Day which is the newspaper for Groton, CT, had a lot of this information the very day it happened when the Navy had them put a lid on it.

There are safety specialists for the airlines and transportation industry that are well aware of this accident and it is hardly top secret now. The veracity of my reporting when this first occurred was questioned and now I have been verified by the statements in this article. There is more to come I fear.

[LasVegasMac]

If an officer is deemed sufficiently out-to-lunch,

LOL - I knew too many that fit that description.

That was why I asked the question. If the Skipper has a history of "being out to lunch", then by all means, his boss should be flushed as well. The article made no mention of the Skipper's duty history.

Seems that there is more to this than what we have seen published - so far.

LVM

[AEMILIUS PAULUS]

Has the rank of Commodore been reactivated? I know about ten years ago it was being considered?

[LasVegasMac]

Was that in an earlier post?

I'm missing a piece or two of info.

Thanks,

LVM

[75thOVI]

Eve'n Nav. Sorry the 8:00 (2000) report is a little late but DMINS #2 is acting up again, the NavETs say the velocities should be back to normal any time now. OOD says we are going up after the 2230 NAVSAT, so things are going to be right as rain. Those were the days, eh Boss? Quite frankly I think the collision occured because of the electronics, rather than is spite of them. Never trusted the damn things myself. Used them, certainly. Trusted them, never! As my old Nav drummed into us, "Nobody ever ran aground because they were too busy plotting." I could tell you stories. Just one question, Do the names Dallas and Ray mean anything to you? Now can you finish this quote?

Submariners Once!
Submariners Twice!...

[PAR35]

How much will it cost to replace USS Hartford?

I don't know if anyone has replied. It appears that a new boat would be about $2 billion, if they refurbished an older Los Angeles class that they were planning to take out of service they could probably get a usable boat for about half a billion.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/ssn-688.htm

[HP8753]

Also I'd assume it would be hard to get a GPS fix while traveling submerged.