Report: Submarine damage worse than expected [USS Hartford]

Navy Times ^ | December 23, 2003 | AP Staff

[Excuse_My_Bellicosity]

GROTON, Conn.

[Excuse_My_Bellicosity]

The reports of the boat "lightly touching bottom" are definitely wrong.

[Hank Rearden]

I think a few careers were left on the sandy bottom, too.

[mystery-ak]

Yeah, looks like they lost their command.

[demlosers]

They probably wished it was a 'sandy bottom.'

[deport]

the navigation team went too long without updating the ship’s chart position, sources told the newspaper.

---

You would think that updates would be automatice in todays world of computers, etc.

At least they didn't lose lives and the boat can be repaired it seems..... careers maybe gone

[BlueNgold]

... wandered outside the channel when the navigation team went too long without updating the ship’s chart position...

The commodore of Submarine Squadron 22 in La Maddalena, Capt. Greg Parker, and the ship’s captain, Cmdr. Christopher R. Van Metre, were both relieved of command Nov. 9. Six crewmen who were part of the navigation party received punishments for dereliction of duty.

As a former Navigator this is so far beyond inexcusable that I am absolutely speechless. I had expected to find that charts had been updated improperly or that conflicting orders had been given ...

Failure to properly chart the position of a U.S. Naval Combatant should result in courts martial for everyone from the Skipper to the QMOW, XO, Gator, OOD, and Conn included!

[BluH2o]

Admiral Nimitz, as a young Naval officer, ran a tin can (destroyer) aground in Manila Bay. That was back in an era when officers were granted some leniency, providing you had a stellar record (up to the point you screwed up ) ... it was considered part of the learning curve.

[Clock King]

"lightly touching bottom"

You'd think we'd be beyond this sort need for propaganda, but I guess not. Maybe because we live in an era of Leftists who will seize on any opportunity to cajole, criticize, whine, lie, etc. about the military or the US, we can't get there yet.

[judicial meanz]

Looks like another 688 just hit the decommissioning list prematurely.

[Poohbah]

Article 110 of the UCMJ, "Improper hazarding of a vessel," is a capital offense if done willfully.

[judicial meanz]

FYI from a former submarine sailor:

If the gouges are too deep into the metal, the boat will be decommissioned. There is no way to repair that, short of rebuilding the entire back half of the ship from the beginning. If they did try to repair it and it failed, you lose the entire crew and the boat too. Too much to lose,

Same thing happened to the USS Nathaniel Greene when it grounded coming out of Holy Loch a few years back. They decomissioned and scrapped it after observing the damage to the forward part of the ship and determining the hull integrity had been compromised.

[BlueNgold]

You would think that updates would be automatice in todays world of computers, etc.

Even where automated chart updates are available they are never to substitute for manual charting. GPS is to be used only as an 'advisory system' in Coastal Navigation, and is superseded by even celestial plots in open waters. GPS may be charted as the official position only when other means of determining a ships position are unavailable or deemed unreliable.

Believe it or not, it is not unusual for a good nav team to be able to plot a sighted/electronically assisted (Sonar/Radar) position faster and more accurately than a GPS Lat/Long can be plotted. I expected my crews to be able to take 90 second fixes in coastal situations, including course speed updates, set/drift, waypoint relation, and recommended actions. They earned 3 consecutive Navigation 'E's including a perfect run through the Balboa Straights. Always rely on good people with good training... and always train like you don't trust anyone.

[vetvetdoug]

Read my previous posts. I was dissed but I had inside information that this sub was fubared. It hit an undersea wall at top speed (I cannot say how fast because it is "top secret"), augured into the wall so hard that it almost turned the sob upside down. Then the Captain bubbled up and grounded the sub on a shoal.

[Frohickey]

nuclear submarine for sale in eBay? ;)

[fso301]

Can you say court marshall?

[fourdeuce82d]

Always rely on good people with good training... and always train like you don't trust anyone

as an ex-infantry/mortar crewman, I'm completely "at sea" when it comes to knowledge about your profession...but I had thought that submariners were more or less the "delta force" of the navy, at least as far as elitism, professionalism, attention to detail, rigorous training, etc..

Maybe a little wide in the stern...but the best of the best when it came to seamanship. How does this sort of thing happen? And what is your take on the tragic collision with the japanese trawler?

This is not, I say again not a snide question, or army/navy rivalry- I really want to know- if nothing else, can minute examination of the events leading up to these incidents tell us something about how highly trained/skilled people can still screw up?

Seems to me the FAA (or somesuch) did a study on avoidable (non-mechanical) crashes- one finding was that a rigid, hierarchical chain of command inhibited junior officers from questioning/correcting the senior flight officer- audio recordings show a co-pilot was often aware of a problem, and tried to bring it to the captain's attention, but was brushed off, and didn't persevere. Any idea if something like this could play a role?

I'm glad they all made it home.

[Tacis]

At the risk of offending liberal readers, are we talking affirmative action sub driver here?

[baltodog]

Can you SPELL court-martial?

(Sorry, couldn't pass it up)

[baltodog]

My brother was on the James Madison.
I wonder if that ever hit anything...

[baltodog]

I don't think the Navy plays affirmative-action games with subs. At least I sure hope they don't.