Report: Submarine damage worse than expected [USS Hartford]

Navy Times ^ | December 23, 2003 | AP Staff

[Excuse_My_Bellicosity]

GROTON, Conn.

[BroncosFan]

Did not know that. The zero-defects, careerist mentality does us no good. In this case, though . . . what a screw up.

[vetvetdoug]

The sub's commander was a graduate of Notre Dame, noted for affirmative action promotions.

[fso301]

OUCH!

[fish hawk]

I was on the Frank Sinatra and we hit a lot of things.

[SolitaryMan]

Sort of doubt if they will decom it, ever heard of hull cuts to replace the damaged area. Hate to say it, but the San Juan hit the that boomer back in 1998, they just cut out the portion of the hull and kept it in service. They do all of the necessary NDT testing and such to make sure it's good to go. I've been to LaMad many times, and that's one are you DO NOT want to run aground, nothing but rock.

But I can't imagine crossing from LaMad to Groton in December on the surface. What a miserable ride that would have been.

[vetvetdoug]

The first discussion of this incident (Early November >100 posts) concerning the USS Hartford had been pulled. It seems there was too much sensitive information posted and objected to by sensitive Navy personnel. The posts on 12/16/03 alluded to the cover up the Navy was using to understate the damage that had occurred to the submarine. The US is lucky this sub didn't sink and contaminate the Mediterranean with nuclear material and result in casualties. The Italian PM would not have been so upset had he not known how bad the situation was originally; the submarine took a month to limp back to the US and cannot submerge; the submarine shudders when the propeller is moving; and lastly, look at how many were relieved of command and punished. We are looking at a $3 Billion wreck because someone was showing what the sub could do full speed so near the coast when it was not necessary.

[vetvetdoug]

The ride back from La Mad for the crewmen was horrible. Even the old salts were seasick. Can you imagine what would happened to you if you had hit one of the rock walls near La Mad at full speed? The USS Hartford crew knows.

[USNBandit]

Anybody know why they relieved the commodore? Was he aboard?

[judicial meanz]

Before I start...let me say its an honor to see another knuckle dragger on the board...

Your observations are on point..hull cuts may work if the gouges arent too bad. I was addressing collision damage compounded by gouging, which may render those useless.

I can sympathize with the surface transit...and no doubt when the sea state was strongest, some cookie boiled up a pot of chili just to get the nukes to barf.

Take care fellow torpedoman...

[Poohbah]

Anybody know why they relieved the commodore? Was he aboard?

When a ships captain screws up that badly, it raises doubts in the fidelity and ability of the squadron commodore.

[LasVegasMac]

nuclear submarine for sale in eBay? ;)

LOL

"Minor repairs needed - some small dents - needs new paint."

LVM

[Doohickey]

They may have been doing a TRE or an ORSE. In that case, maintaining saftety of ship is the also responsiblility of the inspection team. SUBRON 22 doesn't have any boats permanently assigned; they get whatever boats are Med deployed.

[LasVegasMac]

The commodore of Submarine Squadron 22 in La Maddalena, Capt. Greg Parker, and the ship’s captain, Cmdr. Christopher R. Van Metre, were both relieved of command Nov. 9. Six crewmen who were part of the navigation party received punishments for dereliction of duty.

I understand the Skipper being canned but is it normal for the Commodore to be relieved?

USAF type here. If a Wing CC lost a plane or two - maintenance or otherwise, he still had the job. If the "number of take offs don't equal the number of landings" became a trend, they would most certainly start the blood letting at the very top and work their way down into the maintenance shops. But that was fairly rare.

Just curious.

LVM

[Poohbah]

Suppose the plane is lost because of grossly negligent hot-dogging and generally lousy airmanship, and causes enormous loss of property (drops into the Las Vegas strip and takes out Luxor, for example).

[RightWhale]

the navigation team went too long without updating the ship’s chart position

Don't blame that on them. The sub has to surface or bring enough sensors to the surface to lock in a firm update, and that is up to the commander.

[TalBlack]

Just as an aside: I remember that FAA "study" and I never bought its conclusion that, as you put it ...."a co-pilot was often aware of a problem, and tried to bring it to the captain's attention, but was brushed off, and didn't persevere. "....I mean, think about that: you're in a potentially life threatening situation, you percieve a prob, you speak up, are "brushed off", so you,,,,what? Say nothing? Why would a man who is a man allow his hard won judgement be dismissed, AND in a life threatening situation no less? Ah, but there, I've answered my own question!

[BlueNgold]

If training records indicate that a lapse was forseeable then the Commodore is on the hook as the officer in charge of fleet training. However, I believe that in this case the Commodore was actually on board and therefore assumed command burden.

[vetvetdoug]

The Squadron Commander, Capt Greg Parker, was on deck with Cmdr. Christopher R. Van Metre when the USS Hartford met the immovable object.

[sawyer]

Like the ones on the big spender ride in the Pac. What is it with these sub? They are not play things.

[BlueNgold]

As far as engineering and sonar techs go the Sub fleet is the top dog, no question. When it comes to basic seamanship you actually want an old ugly fat nasty supply ship. You want mean old sea dog Chief Boatswain's Mates training your seaman and watch standers, and a QMC that understands how to rig as well as they plot.

I would put my old nav crew up against any in the fleet (when push came to shove on routes and options the ADM called us for a reason, and it wasn't based on seniority) - and most of them were undesignated strikers we trained ourselves. Navigation at sea is as much art and finesse as it is technical, perhaps more so. The only way to learn it is to do it because no passage is ever the same, and every passage in coastal waters is a nail biter.