Imagining "Imagine" : John Lennon's gibberish-filled anthem.

Daily Standard ^ | Joel Engel

[AmishDude]

Well, I would not. I do not.

Why not?

If the above is true then you are a person who only behaves civilly under threat of punishment (hell) and not someone I would trust or associate with.

You are the same way. You have generated some self-imposed guilt that prevents you from acting on your basest instincts.

Here's the reality: You're going to die anyway. That's it. Nothing more. Poofarooni. All for naught. In the long run, we're all John Maynard Keynes.

The consequences of this are far-reaching and cannot be simply dismissed by a waive of a morally superior hand. What generates morality for you? What would you be like if raised in a feral state?

I believe that most people are intrinsically "good" and do not need the threat of punishment to behave decently.

Bwahahahaha. It only takes one wolf if there is no shepherd. Has history taught you nothing? Left to his own devices, man will devour to satiate his appetite.

As far as people like you are concerned, I am grateful that we do have religion if for no other reason than to keep you in check.

You can wallow in your naivete all you want, it won't change the harsh cold realities of life.

[CyberCowboy777]

If you start taking song lyrics too literally and seriously you might as stop listening to music altogether.

Or....you might listen to better music?

[CyberCowboy777]

Hey - I have serious issue with organized religion. But John did not stop there did he?

[AmishDude]

I assume you don't do these things now, why would you want to do these things if someone proved that God did not exist?

Well, the truth is, I'm lazy, so I wouldn't bother to change my behavior. But we're all lazy . . . and greedy. Rule #1 of human nature. But suppose you were brought up believing there were no consequences to your actions except those imposed by an arbitrary and capricious legal system.

[Ignatz]

One problem is that liberals try to live in the world they are imagining.

May I add a slight correction?

"One problem is that liberals try using Government to force others, under threat of violence, to live in the world they are imagining."

There. That's a bit more accurate, eh?

[stuartcr]

We are not all lazy and greedy, not rule #1. If I was brought up that way, then that is how I would believe, (not unlike many throughout history), and accordingly, behave (or suffer the consequences). Legal systems do not require the presence of God, look at many ancient societies.

[Stone Mountain]

I am a Christian, but I don't think "religion" is all that keeps people from descending into barbarism.

even an atheist like myself can plainly see that religion keeps us from all being murderers, rapists, ...i.e. basically animals.

This is why I like FR! : )

[Taliesan]

Yes, that is a strange juxtaposition of thoughts, which I will not attempt to unravel. :-)

[Stone Mountain]

Are we to imagine this because it is good or bad? That is the point my friend - no point in imagining if John thought the situation would worsen.

I disagree that there is no point to imagining things for whatever reason. And whether it is good or bad is something everyone can decide for themselves. Lennon is asking us to imagine a Utopian world - just because it can never happen (as Lennon himself no doubt realized) doesn't mean that one shouldn't try to imagine it. It's a thought experiment - you are welcome to come to your own comclusions.

[Trampled by Lambs]

Oh, I'm all for capitalism. and I agree with you. I don't see what that has to do with religion, good vs. evil, belief systems etc. which is where this thread has drifted.

[AmishDude]

We are not all lazy and greedy, not rule #1.

You are so wrong. We seek as much pleasure as we can while expending as little effort as possible. Even "altruism" provides emotional benefit.

Legal systems do not require the presence of God, look at many ancient societies.

Which dead civilization would you like to point to? Note that their lack of current existance proves my point.

[Stone Mountain]

Morality, as passed onto me through religion. That's also the origin of my rights as a human - so, I ain't complaining.

So how do you intend to pass morality down to your children (or to suceeding generations) without religion? Not criticizing - I'm genuinely curious. I'm also curious as to how you came to reject the "God" part of religion while still believing that the morality part is still valid. Do you believe that morality can exist independent of religion?

[steve8714]

couldn't he have spared one bullet for Yoko?

[steve8714]

beyond that...see Metropolis.

[Trampled by Lambs]

Why not?

Because it would be anti-social, non-productive, unfair, mean and would not make me feel very good about myself. Because I care about the feelings and rights of others and (to some extent) their opinions of me. Because if everyone behaved such, we would have anarchy and a failed society... Because it just wouldn't feel right and would be against my nature. And because I imagine being in jail would really suck.

You are the same way. You have generated some self-imposed guilt that prevents you from acting on your basest instincts.

I disagree. Sure everyone has their lusts, their aggressions, their temptations. No one is perfect, least of all me. We have all done things we are ashamed of. But most people try to do the right thing for the reasons listed above or, like you, because of their religious convictions.

Here's the reality: You're going to die anyway. That's it. Nothing more. Poofarooni. All for naught. In the long run, we're all John Maynard Keynes.

All the more reason to behave in such a way that you feel good about the time you spent on this world. To some, this involves behaving as you've described. Luckily, for most, it does not. Not everyone is as selfish as yourself.

Bwahahahaha. It only takes one wolf if there is no shepherd. Has history taught you nothing? Left to his own devices, man will devour to satiate his appetite.

Has religion ever done anything to prevent those who would "devour"? Wolves exist. How many have "devoured" in the name of god?

I still maintain that man is basically "good". Not universally so - there is evil in the world but we wouldn't have come as far as we have if it wasn't true, religion or no. I can't believe as you claim to. If I did I think I would end my life right now, today.

[witnesstothefall]

When the UN building and head of mission got blown to smithereens in Baghdad a few months back, they played this song at the funeral. I'm not kidding.

The song is today an anthem of atheist commies.

[stuartcr]

I really don't believe that you speak for all of humanity. Roman law comes to mind, as does Hammurabbi, Greeks, Egypt, China, Japan, the Pacific Islands, India, etc. All societies come to an end eventually, as I'm pretty sure ours will.

[CyberCowboy777]

I see it as all tied together - especially since the topic is "Imagine" where all the "bad" things are gone...Religion, God, Capitalism, etc...

The question you should really ask is - why is every great free nation in the modern world built upon basic Transcendent Moral Authority and every nation that is not has no freedom and those moving away from that foundation becoming less free, less "great".

Freedom, Justice, Capitalism and personal/societal responsibility are built upon an idea of Society balancing Liberty and Morality. The world of Imagine cannot support that balance.

[CyberCowboy777]

Whether it is good or bad is fact. People can except or reject that.

Instead of a thought experiment on the unattainable, why not on the potential?

John can sing about what he likes - but then I can also belittle his contribution on this particular matter. Those of us focus on reality will continue to move forward and those stuck in a day dream can continue to protest the War.

[blowfish]

>Or....you might listen to better music?
Absolutely. If you don't like a piece of music, listen to something else.
I really like the Beatles. I really like the John Lennon/Paul McCartney songwriting team. I don't interpret the lyrics to 'Imagine' the way the author does. It's that simple.
There's plenty of songs that I don't like because I find the lyrics offensive and there's nothing else that redeems the song or lyrics. There's songs whose lyrics I give a pass because the song is so good/funny/thought provoking. Heck, by the author's methodology there probably isn't a single Frank Zappa song that would remain standing, and I ain't about to stop listening to Zappa!