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Is it just me or is Atheism a religion?
Philosphy Forum ^ | FR Post 12-6-2003 | "A Sloth"

Posted on 12/05/2003 10:43:11 AM PST by vannrox

This is a subject near to my heart and my own spiritual journey, and I'd like to discuss it with as many intelligent minds as possible as I ponder it. It seems to me as though the most basic, intrinsic aspect of a religious philosophy is faith. I have been talking to a lot of Christians lateley, so I'm not sure if that is the prevailing veiw among people of other persuasions. Anyways, it seems to me as though a religion can really be boiled down to beliving that it is THE answer, and it seems to me as though atheism is no exception.

But this is where I came to realize there many different brands of thought given the title of Atheist, each with their own twists. Here are some categories that i have run across, and my opinion(just roll with me on this one):

Spiritual Atheists Some people claim to be "spiritual" but not "religious," disavowing belief in a god persay in favor of just not thinking about the issue. It sounds just lazy to me. They get the "all good people go to heaven" feeling without defining good, heaven, or even feeling itself. This may work for some, but it seems to lack any real thought into the matter.

Non-Practicing Atheists And there are the "Catholics" like my parents who dont buy a word the church says, but are so afraid of what it means to be atheist that they desperately cling to a religion that offers them no real meaning.

Deist Atheists Some people use Atheism to describe a sense of disbelief in the major established world religions, which to me sounds like it could still be a throwback to the deism of the 18th century. Basically it can be summed up as: There is some kind of god, hes a pretty decent guy, dont be an ass and everything will turn out ok somehow, once again, a little too lazy for me.

Orthodox Atheists Then there are the Atheists so absolutly steadfast in their disbelief in god that they would have made an excellent Christian in another life (THAT's an interesting turn of phase!). They dont buy the proof that the various religions offer, but the seem to narrowmindedly rule out any possiblities except absolute soulless oblivion. I have a friend like this, and i have yet to figure out how he can 100% FOR SURE rule out a higher power of any type...

Agnostics This is the only one that really makes sense to me. I mean, maybe there's a god. Probably not one of the big religion's vengeful, mythical "gods" with their spotty and doubtfully accurate "historical records," I doubt reincarnation that doesnt work well with the increasing entropy of the universe, and the evidence for it is even less credible than the rest ... But prove to me god's not just hiding...

Thats where i'm at right now. I would appreciate any input, even religious propaganda. I want to know the truth, even if it means the complete destruction of my current schema for faith.

I would even go so far as to recommend two such books, The Case for Christ and The Case for Faith, to anyone who is openminded enough to consider Christianity. I almost bought into it after reading those, but to me, there are still holes (i'll probably talk about those later) If your already Christian, they will strengthen your faith, and if not, they will rock your world...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: atheism; future; god; hope; man; religion
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To: #3Fan
Thank you for being honest on your source.

Like my example and the many examples of humanist/liberal bias in the media, I would be skeptical about such claims. This is especially so if the researcher's meal ticket is dependant on sensationalism/their research has no practical application.
381 posted on 12/06/2003 10:30:01 PM PST by Loc123
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To: Loc123
I don't remember what the show was but it seemed credible and they weren't liberal since liberals are anti-Christian, not pro-Christian. Liberals would never admit that animals can sense God. Again if you want to think they were lying, that's fine with me, it was just a minor sidepoint of the larger point I was making that university atheists are indeed preachers, they worship physical laws shortsightedly, and preach their beliefs.
382 posted on 12/07/2003 4:08:12 AM PST by #3Fan
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To: Loc123
”A true theist would not take the hypothetical money from the drawer because ”

People are weak, irrespective of their ideology. Attempts to rationalize this away or pitiful.

383 posted on 12/07/2003 5:09:39 AM PST by elfman2
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To: highlander_UW
Both are faith based views, mine allows for supernatural events, yours doesn't...but when one backs it up far enough the requirement for one to have transpired is demanded by logic.

I'm sorry, but I can't understand the second half of your response.

384 posted on 12/07/2003 8:30:40 AM PST by wizardoz
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To: #3Fan
There are far worse crimes than saying God doesn't exist. Case in point....certain Roman Catholic priests.
385 posted on 12/07/2003 8:35:36 AM PST by stanz (Those who don't believe in evolution should go jump off the flat edge of the Earth.)
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To: Loc123
1) Science is still based on the faith that our eyes/other senses accurately report the universe. We also assume our brains themselves accurately synthesize those stimuli. For practical purposes we are correct--still, it is a faith.

No, we don't have faith in any such thing. If our eyes tell us something that doesn't jibe with what we already know, we test it by other means. If you saw a bar of lead floating in water, you wouldn't think, "Oh, I guess lead floats after all." You'd test by other means. We subject things to tests all the time. If they behave in a consistent manner we decide that that is what can be expected of them. But there's no faith involved, there is a constant testing and re-testing.

2) Actually, we never imagine infinite. We can right symbols that to us mean "really big number." But no, we cannot actually grasp infinite.

Well, "imagine" and "grasp" aren't the same thing.

3) The Law of Identity is not a law, it is a philosophical criterion. Interestingly, the "law" itself falls before its own assumptions; it cannot explain anything metaphysical.

Can you give me an example?

386 posted on 12/07/2003 9:35:22 AM PST by wizardoz
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If you believe in multiple deities, you are probably a long way from atheism. If you believe in one deity, then you might be one short step away from atheism, but you are still in violation of atheism.
387 posted on 12/07/2003 9:42:30 AM PST by Consort
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To: wizardoz
Well, if you want to use science and I want to use philosophy, we aren't going to be able to continue. I might as well speak to you in French and have you answer in Chinese. Oh well. We tried.

Right, science has no place in a discussion about the creation of the Universe and the possibilities for the Creator.

388 posted on 12/07/2003 11:26:18 AM PST by jwalsh07
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To: vannrox
It's just you.
389 posted on 12/07/2003 11:27:55 AM PST by breakem
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To: stanz
There are far worse crimes than saying God doesn't exist.

Far worse than killing souls? That's permanant death.

Case in point....certain Roman Catholic priests.

Catholic priests were singled because they're Christian. If you look into the school system, I think you'd find a lot of decadent teachers. They never get bad press though. I live in a mostly Catholic area (although I'm not a Catholic) and I know that in the last few years I've seen more teachers lose their jobs for pedophelia than members of the Catholic Church. As a matter of fact I haven't heard of anyone connected to the Catholic Church here get in any kind of trouble. I think about three teachers have been fired for it though. If the liberal press didn't protect the teacher's union, I'm sure they'd be up there with the Catholic Church making headlines on this issue.

390 posted on 12/07/2003 12:15:07 PM PST by #3Fan
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To: jwalsh07
"Science" is nothing but the application of scientific theory. As I said, if you apply scientific theory to mysticism, you get scientific-sounding mysticism. No point in that.
391 posted on 12/07/2003 5:06:21 PM PST by wizardoz
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To: wizardoz
And like I said, sophistry is you.
392 posted on 12/07/2003 5:12:19 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: #3Fan
Certain Catholic priests are homosexuals and and/or pedaphiles. I'm not concerned with the soul as much as I am concerned with how we treat each other here and now. That's what matters to me.
393 posted on 12/07/2003 6:24:39 PM PST by stanz (Those who don't believe in evolution should go jump off the flat edge of the Earth.)
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To: stanz
Certain Catholic priests are homosexuals and and/or pedaphiles.

As are teachers, but teachers don't make national headlines.

I'm not concerned with the soul as much as I am concerned with how we treat each other here and now. That's what matters to me.

How we treat each other and what we believe determines what happens to the soul. You may change your mind about what happens to the soul soon when there will be nothing but the soul.

394 posted on 12/07/2003 8:01:57 PM PST by #3Fan
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To: wizardoz
"The Wizard of Oz" was on tonight, did you catch it? :^)
395 posted on 12/07/2003 8:03:34 PM PST by #3Fan
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To: #3Fan
How would animals being able to "sense God" be pro-Christian?

Also, I brought up my Sagan claim because that too "seemed" credible at the time. Only when--miraculously--a Dr. who studies this very behavior visited our school (he's married to a teacher) did we learn the truth.
396 posted on 12/07/2003 8:26:14 PM PST by Loc123
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To: elfman2
True Christians are not. You are right that most "Christians" are not true and therefore your generalization stands.

None-the-less, true Christians don't care about mammon. One good examples is the Christians fed to the lions.
397 posted on 12/07/2003 8:28:33 PM PST by Loc123
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To: Loc123
How would animals being able to "sense God" be pro-Christian?

Liberals accept that animals sense things. They wouldn't want to admit they sense God.

Also, I brought up my Sagan claim because that too "seemed" credible at the time. Only when--miraculously--a Dr. who studies this very behavior visited our school (he's married to a teacher) did we learn the truth.

I can't even remember what you said about Sagan. If you don't want to believe what I said, that's fine with me, I know what was said though. It was just a sidepoint to your ridiculous claim that "cavemen" were atheists, ridiculous because there's no way to know.

398 posted on 12/07/2003 8:32:15 PM PST by #3Fan
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To: wizardoz
1) I think you are misunderstanding my point. We have a level of faith that our eyes accurately report our scientific measurements. We have faith our brains accurately synthesize the info from those measuring devices. I am not talking about mirages here.

2) I'm sorry, but infinite is beyond any understanding. To us it will seem like a huge number, but being infinite we cannot truly even think about it. If you truly believe you can understand, think about--whatever the word-- about infinite then you are either crazy or the Creator. I mean this as a throwback jest, not an insult.

3) Sure. From what I've read, this "law" is basically explaining the limits of our measurement of the universe. It states we cannot measure something that is not in the universe; we cannot measure something metaphysical. Therefore, it is beyond our comprehension. If you truly have faith in this philosophical idea, then you cannot then imagine (or whatever word you want) infinite. But if you believe this in addition to believing you can imagine infinite, then that is cognitive dissonance (agreeing with something but not following it).

Anyways, these are really minor points in the larger debate. If you have any questions about Christianity or the probability of a Creator I would love to answer them :)
399 posted on 12/07/2003 8:36:03 PM PST by Loc123
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To: familyofman
Put me down as an Orthodox atheist. "...absolutly steadfast in their disbelief in god ...."

You sound pretty dogmatic ...

400 posted on 12/07/2003 8:42:06 PM PST by 11th_VA (If you can read this IN ENGLISH - Thank a Veteran !!!)
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