Posted on 12/05/2003 10:43:11 AM PST by vannrox
This is a subject near to my heart and my own spiritual journey, and I'd like to discuss it with as many intelligent minds as possible as I ponder it. It seems to me as though the most basic, intrinsic aspect of a religious philosophy is faith. I have been talking to a lot of Christians lateley, so I'm not sure if that is the prevailing veiw among people of other persuasions. Anyways, it seems to me as though a religion can really be boiled down to beliving that it is THE answer, and it seems to me as though atheism is no exception.
But this is where I came to realize there many different brands of thought given the title of Atheist, each with their own twists. Here are some categories that i have run across, and my opinion(just roll with me on this one):
Spiritual Atheists Some people claim to be "spiritual" but not "religious," disavowing belief in a god persay in favor of just not thinking about the issue. It sounds just lazy to me. They get the "all good people go to heaven" feeling without defining good, heaven, or even feeling itself. This may work for some, but it seems to lack any real thought into the matter.
Non-Practicing Atheists And there are the "Catholics" like my parents who dont buy a word the church says, but are so afraid of what it means to be atheist that they desperately cling to a religion that offers them no real meaning.
Deist Atheists Some people use Atheism to describe a sense of disbelief in the major established world religions, which to me sounds like it could still be a throwback to the deism of the 18th century. Basically it can be summed up as: There is some kind of god, hes a pretty decent guy, dont be an ass and everything will turn out ok somehow, once again, a little too lazy for me.
Orthodox Atheists Then there are the Atheists so absolutly steadfast in their disbelief in god that they would have made an excellent Christian in another life (THAT's an interesting turn of phase!). They dont buy the proof that the various religions offer, but the seem to narrowmindedly rule out any possiblities except absolute soulless oblivion. I have a friend like this, and i have yet to figure out how he can 100% FOR SURE rule out a higher power of any type...
Agnostics This is the only one that really makes sense to me. I mean, maybe there's a god. Probably not one of the big religion's vengeful, mythical "gods" with their spotty and doubtfully accurate "historical records," I doubt reincarnation that doesnt work well with the increasing entropy of the universe, and the evidence for it is even less credible than the rest ... But prove to me god's not just hiding...
Thats where i'm at right now. I would appreciate any input, even religious propaganda. I want to know the truth, even if it means the complete destruction of my current schema for faith.
I would even go so far as to recommend two such books, The Case for Christ and The Case for Faith, to anyone who is openminded enough to consider Christianity. I almost bought into it after reading those, but to me, there are still holes (i'll probably talk about those later) If your already Christian, they will strengthen your faith, and if not, they will rock your world...
People are weak, irrespective of their ideology. Attempts to rationalize this away or pitiful.
I'm sorry, but I can't understand the second half of your response.
No, we don't have faith in any such thing. If our eyes tell us something that doesn't jibe with what we already know, we test it by other means. If you saw a bar of lead floating in water, you wouldn't think, "Oh, I guess lead floats after all." You'd test by other means. We subject things to tests all the time. If they behave in a consistent manner we decide that that is what can be expected of them. But there's no faith involved, there is a constant testing and re-testing.
2) Actually, we never imagine infinite. We can right symbols that to us mean "really big number." But no, we cannot actually grasp infinite.
Well, "imagine" and "grasp" aren't the same thing.
3) The Law of Identity is not a law, it is a philosophical criterion. Interestingly, the "law" itself falls before its own assumptions; it cannot explain anything metaphysical.
Can you give me an example?
Right, science has no place in a discussion about the creation of the Universe and the possibilities for the Creator.
Far worse than killing souls? That's permanant death.
Case in point....certain Roman Catholic priests.
Catholic priests were singled because they're Christian. If you look into the school system, I think you'd find a lot of decadent teachers. They never get bad press though. I live in a mostly Catholic area (although I'm not a Catholic) and I know that in the last few years I've seen more teachers lose their jobs for pedophelia than members of the Catholic Church. As a matter of fact I haven't heard of anyone connected to the Catholic Church here get in any kind of trouble. I think about three teachers have been fired for it though. If the liberal press didn't protect the teacher's union, I'm sure they'd be up there with the Catholic Church making headlines on this issue.
As are teachers, but teachers don't make national headlines.
I'm not concerned with the soul as much as I am concerned with how we treat each other here and now. That's what matters to me.
How we treat each other and what we believe determines what happens to the soul. You may change your mind about what happens to the soul soon when there will be nothing but the soul.
Liberals accept that animals sense things. They wouldn't want to admit they sense God.
Also, I brought up my Sagan claim because that too "seemed" credible at the time. Only when--miraculously--a Dr. who studies this very behavior visited our school (he's married to a teacher) did we learn the truth.
I can't even remember what you said about Sagan. If you don't want to believe what I said, that's fine with me, I know what was said though. It was just a sidepoint to your ridiculous claim that "cavemen" were atheists, ridiculous because there's no way to know.
You sound pretty dogmatic ...
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